They really think we are that stupid

red55 · Mar 12, 2010

flabengal said: ↑

You would have to be incredibly gullible to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. Apparently the Gulf of Tonkin incident never happened. This was news to me....I don't know enough about that period but saw an interview with Robert McNamara where he expressly said they were confused, it did not happen, the torpedos were never fired.
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That was an inaccuracy moreso than a lie. The gulf of tonkin Incident involved two separate naval engagements. The first did involve enemy torpedo attacks and a destroyer was hit with 14.5mm gunfire, although it evaded the torpedos. The North Vietnamese claimed a torpedo hit and an aircraft shot down.

The second incident 2 nights later involved the US destroyers firing on radar targets in weather conditions that turned out not to be enemy craft.

US ships were attacked.

flabengal · Mar 12, 2010

In 1965, President Johnson commented privately: "For all I know, our Navy was shooting at whales out there."[29]

In 1981, Captain Herrick and journalist Robert Scheer re-examined Herrick's ship's log and determined that the first torpedo report from August 4, which Herrick had maintained had occurred—the "apparent ambush"—was in fact unfounded.[19]

Although information obtained well after the fact supported Captain Herrick's statements about the inaccuracy of the later torpedo reports as well as the 1981 Herrick/Scheer conclusion about the inaccuracy of the first, indicating that there was no North Vietnamese attack that night, at the time U.S. authorities and all of the Maddox crew stated that they were convinced that an attack had taken place. As a result, planes from the carriers Ticonderoga and Constellation were sent to hit North Vietnamese torpedo boat bases and fuel facilities during Operation Pierce Arrow.

Squadron commander James Stockdale was one of the U.S. pilots flying overhead during the second alleged attack. Stockdale wrote in his 1984 book Love and War: " had the best seat in the house to watch that event, and our destroyers were just shooting at phantom targets—there were no PT boats there... There was nothing there but black water and American fire power." Stockdale at one point recounts seeing Turner Joy pointing her guns at the Maddox.[30] Stockdale said his superiors ordered him to keep quiet about this. After he was captured, this knowledge became a heavy burden. He later said he was concerned that his captors would eventually force him to reveal what he knew about the second incident.[30]

In 1995, retired Vietnamese Defense Minister Vo Nguyen Giap, meeting with former Secretary of Defense McNamara, categorically denied that Vietnamese gunboats had attacked American destroyers on August 4, while admitting to the attack on August 2.[31][32] A taped conversation of a meeting several weeks after passage of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was released in 2001, revealing that McNamara expressed doubts to President Johnson that the attack had even occurred.

In the Fall of 1999, retired senior CIA engineering executive S. Eugene Poteat wrote that he was asked in early August 1964 to determine if the radar operator's report showed a real torpedo boat attack or an imagined one. He asked for further details on time, weather and surface conditions. No further details were forthcoming. In the end he concluded that there were no torpedo boats on the night in question, and that the White House was interested only in confirmation of an attack, not that there was no such attack.[33]
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Sounds to me like there was no attack that actually occured on August 4th.

Again, whether incompetence or corruption is the cause doesn't really matter. The accuracy of the governments statements can be called into question.

These are big decisions they are making. They need to get their facts straight.

Nutriaitch · Mar 13, 2010

flabengal said: ↑

You would have to be incredibly gullible to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.
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it's already been proven that by impartial investigators that it could have happened EXACTLY like the official government story said it did.

does that prove it DID happen that way? no it doesn't

but it does prove it could have, and to believe it was impossible would take someone incredibly gullible.

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They really think we are that stupid

red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

flabengal Founding Member

Nutriaitch Fear the Buoy

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