The similarities of 10th and 14th century Europe and 21st Century America

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by LSUsupaFan, Mar 16, 2012.

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  1. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    It was not a "purely defensive war". To have defended Byzantium would have been defensive, but The Crusades went on to conquer Palestine.

    Yes, Saladin and others had conquered Palestine, but it had hardly been a Christian nation. It was not a "nation" at all and was inhabited by Arabs, Jews, Christians, and a dozen other peoples. The area has been conquered and reconquered countless times since the dawn of humanity. Egyptians, Mesopotamians, Turks, Greeks, and and all of the endemic semitic tribes of various ilk have been going after each other for millennia.

    It was a conflict, like may others. Who is to say who was just in their invasion and occupation and who wasn't. The muslims allowed Christians and jews access to holy places in Jerusalem. The Christians did not reciprocate when they held it.

    Who is to say if it was a necessary thing? The Church, of course.

    Heresy is a religious crime. Do not try to redefine it.

    This is why wars are fought . . . to conquer and reconquer. Religious persecution of minorities is quite another thing altogether. Jews and Gypsies were "undermining" the Third Reich, too. But exterminating them did nothing to fight the war. It was simply genocide.

    Irrelevant. It is still a religious court persecuting people for religious reasons.

    You know, I'm fairly well-read on a number of topics, but I have never had the temerity to suggest to anyone that they are not entitled to debate an issue because they haven't read the same books as I.

    So then, you must admit they were able to impose their views on society? Because that is how this whole discourse started . . . your statement that only governments can impose their views upon society.
     
    red55, Mar 16, 2012
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  2. locoguano

    locoguano Founding Member

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    If we are going to draw historical parallels, I'd say its closer to 133 B.C..
     
    locoguano, Mar 16, 2012
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  3. martin

    martin Banned Forever

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    i believe the point is they could then, but we live in a different time.
     
    martin, Mar 16, 2012
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  4. LSUsupaFan

    LSUsupaFan Founding Member

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    Yes places where Christians were being enslaved, murdered, and forcibly converted to Islam.


    No they didn't. By 1094 the pilgrim trails had been destroyed and the Turks were advancing into Europe.

    The Byzantines thought it was necessary enough to ask for help from the west during the height of the east-west schism.

    In the modern context, yes. In 14th and 15th century Spain it was the ultimate crime against the State.

    Jews were not subject to the ecclesiastical courts. And the Jews had been in league with the Moors, which is why they were expelled. It is also why the Jewish converts to Christianity were so mistrusted.

    It was a religious court, operating under secular supervision, and trying people for a multitude of reasons. And again for the time, the Church tribunals were considered very mild.

    Look friend, being well read on a number of topics is not the same as being well read on a particular topic. I am suggesting that if you had a better understanding of the topic we would have a better debate.

    When the rulers of the state, have just won a brutal reconquest, and they are being actively undermined by the groups that prospered during the occupation, and they are jealous religious zealots, and the ideals of tolerance and free thought are unheard of then yes, the government of the state can impose religious standards on the citizenry. Again as I said in the other thread, that is nothing like modern America.

    You have to remember re-conquered Spain was post-Christendom state. Secular rulers held the power, and requested the inquisition and threatened to withhold Spanish military support to Italy, who was fending off Turkish aggression, if it were not granted.
     
    LSUsupaFan, Mar 17, 2012
    #14
  5. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Look friend, perhaps you should just debate yourself.
     
    red55, Mar 19, 2012
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  6. Frogleg

    Frogleg Registered Best

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    We've entered "The Age Of Pericles", where Obama is a modern day Pericles. Except, Pericles didn't smoke cigarettes and I am a big fan of Pericles.
     
    Frogleg, Mar 19, 2012
    #16
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