Obama The Iran Deal We Should Have Done

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by Bengal B, Jul 17, 2015.

  1. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    You really don't understand the agreement at all. This makes no sense. The sanctions won't be lifted until they comply. That means they won't be building a weapon.
     
  2. el005639

    el005639 Founding Member

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    Like I said multiple times I personally don't believe that the parties (including our current and future administrations) will live up to the agreement...feel free to tell me that I'm wrong time will wise right. I'm finished with this discussion .
     
  3. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    You can believe what you want. But you have to come up with some better reasoning if you expect anyone to agree.
     
  4. Winston1

    Winston1 Founding Member

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    A little fodder for those who understand that it was/is and will always be a bad deal. Note to those who say we should scrap the deal; it's too late and only a total fail by Iran will get in the way of 'bizness as usual' by Russia, Europe and the fool in the White House. The president and Kerry gave away any leverage they had and are at the mercy of the Iranians.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/iran..._content=&utm_medium=email&nr_email_referer=1
     
  5. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    I'm not going to debate an article, but that biased report you link from Israel is full of flaws and blind assumptions. Go ahead make some points from it that you think are valid and I'll shoot them up.
     
  6. Winston1

    Winston1 Founding Member

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    Basically it confirms what most reasonable people expected. Iran is committing billions to Hezbollah and other Shiite organizations OUTSIDE of Iran rather than the internal effort you ballyhooed. Before you go on your "It's their money" rant don't bother. No one doubts whose money it is. The point is that this deal provides Iran's with the means to follow its oft stated purpose of defeat of the U.S., Israel and the Saudi Sunni.

    IMO the defeat of Israel truly means it's extermination as a state and people whether today or in 50 years. Their hope defeat of the Sauds is pretty similar. You should have a clue as to how much the Persians and Arabs hate each other and what the added mix of 700 years of sectarian warfare adds. Our defeat would be to remove us as an influence in the ME and world. We are hated for 2 reasons. First because we're there interfering in their world. Second because our secular way of life is both an insult and a threat to their vision of the world.

    Don't give me your capability rant either. This is a long term goal to be achieved by any means possible. Would the nuke Israel? If they thought they could get away with it yes. Would they invade Israel? Again if they thought they could succeed they would. However they do know better. They will do everything to bleed Israel dry and separate it from the west politically. They have succeeded to some extent and they are ratcheting up their efforts day by day.

    The treaty is very flawed. We could have done better. The responsibility for its faults lays at the feet of Obama, HRC and Kerry. They wanted it at any cost. They don't even deny there is an obligation to retaliate on Israel if they strike Iran.

    Unfortunately because the other partners also sold their souls we have no choice but to let it take effect. It's the least bad choice. Only that
     
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  7. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Iran has been supporting Hezbollah ever since Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982. And none of the released money has gone to Iran yet and it won't until they meet the requirements of the agreement. If they are spending money on Hezbollah, it is comic from their oil revenue just like it always did. So when that based author stated that Iran increased its support after the Iran deal, he suggested it was with the Iranian money being returned in the deal, which is a lie. Moreover he offered no evidence to support this claim. Furthermore Hezbollah is not fighting Israel right now. They are using Iranian and Russian funding to fight ISIS! Hezbollah is heavily involved supportting Assad right now because when he falls, they are done.

    WHAT defeat of Israel?!!! Isreal has not been defeated and is in no danger of being defeated. They have the most powerful military in the middle east. They have 200 nuclear weapons and missiles to deliver them. No one is going to attack Israel with nuclear weapons. Especially Iran which doesn't have one and won't be getting one because of the agreement. Pakistan already has a Islamic bomb. Have they defeated Israel, to? We give Israel $2 billion a year to defend themselves and they are doing great at it.

    WHAT defeat?!!! This is really ridiculous. We have thousands of nuclear weapons, they have none. We have allies and bases all round the middle east in easy range of Iran, they have no bases outside Iran and no allies except Assad , while he lasts. Do you want me to list AGAIN all of the countries and forces we have stationed in the middle east, including in countries on three sides of Iran? Our influence in the Middle is is HUGE, unprecedented, and unthreatened. We just took down and occupied two countries. You are simply crying wolf.

    Fuck that. It completely blows up your notion and I will wield it every time you start with this nonsense. Iran talks the talk because they cannot walk the walk.

    So should you. It ain't...gonna...happen. We pay Israel a lot of cash to defend themselves and yet they want us to come back and do it for them. Fuck that, too.

    Dude, Iran is the country that is separated rom the entire world politically. They are under UN sanctions and managed to get the US, Russia and China to band tougher against them. They have no ally at all. Israel does. Iran is in a world of shit and needs this deal to survive. It hasn't stopped their shrill rhetoric and it never will, but that is the way it works in the third world. "Words are just words" to quote Leonard Fournette. We are about playing the game and we are playing Iran like a fiddle.

    How. It was negotiated for years and we have international partners, you seem to want to ignore that. This is not a bilateral deal. It is multi-nation deal. How exactly could we have done better other than for Iran to capitulate unconditionally?

    The credit lies there, yes. And with George Bush who offered a similar deal in 2006. The first offer to Iran in 28 years, excepting the secret deal that Reagan made to trade them missiles in exchange for hostages, in violation of the law and of long-standing policy.

    What obligation? This is a LIE. The very notion that the US is "obligated" to attack Israel is so ridiculous that nobody in their right mind would believe it. I challenge you to document this political bullshit claim. Not some bloggers opinion. Show me where this "obligation to retaliate against Israel" is in the treaty. I know what you are going to post and so I will tear it to shreds right now

    It states that the US and other western signers "are prepared to cooperate with Iran on the implementation of nuclear security guidelines and best practices." This cooperation will come "in the form of training courses and workshops to strengthen Iran's ability to prevent, protect and respond to nuclear security threats to nuclear facilities and systems as well as to enable effective and sustainable nuclear security and physical protection systems,"

    Nothing whatsoever about Israel or retaliation. Not one damned thing. What it says is that the US is going to have a hand in making sure that the Iranian civilian nuclear sites are secure from theft and sabotage. The concern is not that Israel will attack a civilian plant, it is that Sunni jihadists might try to steal material or sabotage a Shia facility. We put that clause on the treaty for obvious reasons. And they have to do with Al Qaeda and ISIS guerrillas, not Israeli missiles.
     
  8. el005639

    el005639 Founding Member

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    Like I said several pages ago I'm content to wait and see who is right mainly because there is no option to do otherwise. Ill make this promise if 10 years from now Red's proven right, and iran is peaceful civilian nuke powered nation, he can pull this thread up and I'll come back and say I was wrong about them, but I seriously doubt I will have to do so.
     
  9. Bengal B

    Bengal B Founding Member

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    The whole thing hinges on trusting the Iranians not to cheat. And giving them 24 days notice before an inspection is a license to cheat.
     
  10. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    We don't have to trust them, it is based on verification. How will they cheat? Spell it out Inspectors go in and take samples of trace elements on walls, floors, ducts etc. that are impossible to remove. If they are there, they are busted.
     

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