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Well that is one ain't it. How many witnesses do you offer? And look, this raid was officially announced by the US government. The President of the United States, in fact. With all of the responsibility and accountability that goes with that. And the backup of the Pentagon, as well.

I am not at all surprised that you think the President is a liar and that there exists yet another vast conspiracy in government to lie to America. It is one of your favorite things. I can't imagine what motivation he would have to lie or for the government to mislead it's people either.

So let's see how much proof you actually have . . .

Who says? Where is that proof you keep talking about. Not only was this one a of a very few special aircraft that had to be used on training missions as well as on operations. It had been used before and was proven to be reliable. 3,500 miles? Are you serious? This is the distance from San diego to Baton Rouge and back. It's less than the oil change interval in your Lexus. You think the aircraft should have been retired? Perhaps, you meant 3,500 hours. You still will find that this is nowhere close to the service life of Blackhawk aircraft. Especially a specialized air helicopter with inside storage and extra maintenance.

Who says? Where is that evidence to support your claims. Or are you guessing?

Whose is the conflicting story? How do you know these things? Evidence requires a credible source.

Who says? I challenge you to produce the DEVGRU document that says this. How do you know how they carried out the mission or what their rules of engagement were. They change from operation to operation, you know. You claim that none of us really knows what happened, yet you seem to think that you do. How? Why kill women and children that they didn't have to? It's not like this raid was going to go unnoticed. These guys are not stupid. Why commit atrocities for no gain to the mission, which was successful? Do you really imagine that this is required? It's not like action novels.

Maybe for any random perp, but not for OBL. Nothing but the whole enchilada. Photos, DNA, fingerprints, scars, retina, everything. Plus nobody was going to leave a body behind to become a holy relict for jihadists. Why not take him? That is the question. It was undeniable proof (well, to reasonable people). It shoots down conspiracy theorists for one thing. Multiple trains of evidence, multiple incontrovertible witnesses.

This ain't a jungle camp in Vietnam, OK? It was a small compound and they were going up stairs. They rush rooms and they have a very small point team going up stairways. There is no leapfrogging in a narrow stairway.

Who says? There are plenty of survivors of that raid. More memoirs will be written. More official evidence will be released in time. The truth is that you have offered no proof whatsoever to support these conspiracy claims. It's the authority of the United States of American against who? Against what evidence? From what credible sources?

Just the facts, Ma'am.

 

Evidence?

 

You are clearly saying the government lied. You have offered no motivation for them to do so. You have offered no evidence at all, only speculation. It was a CIA operation, but it used Pentagon planes, Pentagon units, and Pentagon personnel. So what?

Then prove it. Where do the ST-6 standards exist? They actually used that aircraft, it must have been up to their standards. From what we know of it, it was one of the most secret and advanced helicopters in existence.

Who exactly is contradicting them? Not the US government. YOU are the one disputing the bin ladin raid and calling the government liars. You either have credible evidence or you don't. I'm simply pointing out that you don't.

For what purpose? We already had the entire body from multiple tests including photos and DNA. Who needs a trophy? The information you are "sharing" is highly irrelevant.

The same way you do, of course. I'm guessing.

Who cares what they "usually" do? This was not a "usual" op. There're were two primary helicopters carrying about two dozen operators, this has been reported. There was a third very large helicopter carrying even more reserve troops. Many Spec-op missions involve more than a handful of personnel. There were helicopter pilots, F-16 pilots, C-130 pilots involved in the operation. There were people at the bases where they left and returned to. Oh, and the White House War Room and the Pentagon watched the whole operation in real time from high-flying drones. This was too big to cover up if they had a reason, to which nobody did.

Again, you are the one making revisionist claims about a US government coverup and lie about the raid on bin Ladin. So far you have not offered a motive for this conspiracy, nor a witness who disagrees with the witnesses that attest to this, nor a single source for any of your claims. Not a one.

I stand by the official statements of the White House, the Pentagon, and members of the team that have gone public. Where do you get your information, so that we can assess its credibility?

 

So what? How is this possibly significant?

My information comes from the United States of America. Official people and statements that are on the record. Where does your information come from? You have not given any sources at all. Perhaps you are making it up as you go. Perhaps you are misinformed. Perhaps your source is a whackadoo. Talk about misinformation . . .

Well, You sure do have a vivid imagination but you have offered nothing credible yourself.

I tend to believe on-the-record official government sources over anonymous internet characters. I will consider any documentation you present. So far nothing. Lots of accusations amid chronic disbelief in official sources and discounting of statements by real people that are on the record. Who is it that you believe? Why do you imagine that the government isn't satisfied that bin ladin is dead and how it happened? Why would they lie about DNA evidence? Your scenario is full of holes.

So it is total fabrication? If you have a source, cite it so that we might assess it ourselves. Or were you there?

And you did? This is sounding like another conspiracy theory based on nothing but disbelief in government. I'm satisfied that you are not a nutjob, but you may be being influenced by them.

Neither are you an authoritative source like the President or the Pentagon. If you are making a wild-ass guess then just say so. When I'm being hypothetical, I am careful to say so. But you say you are not guessing, that you know these things. Last time I checked, it is OK for us to dispute your allegations and I'm doing just that.

It's not . . . unless you want us to believe you. You said very matter-of-factly that the special helicopters did not meet Seal Team Six standards and that you were not guessing. So prove it or be disbelieved. Let me point out that Spec Op aircraft are not flown by Seals but by the US Army 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment and that they were acknowledged as participating in the raid.

Well, I don't believe them. I don't think anybody does. Why should we? Are you not concerned with your own credibility?

 

But they carry far more weight than off-the-record anonymous sources.

I am not assured.

So what? Covert operations leave a lot of unanswered questions. It is the nature of the beast. It is not evidence of a conspiracy to deceive the American public.

At last the mystery source is revealed.

And I pointed out some holes in it. It begs the question "Who is saying this and for what reason?".

Procedure does not often survive contact with the enemy. The plan went out the window when the helicopter crashed, otherwise SEALs would have been dropped on the roof. The entire sequence from spotting OBL in the stairwell to shooting him in the bedroom was less than 10 seconds. SEALs have been coming out of the woodwork in the last two days to make off-the-record comments to reporters that there were three SEALs who shot bin Ladin. "The Point Man" who will never give his name, they say, shot him in the stairwell and two other SEALS shot him when they rushed the bedroom (Bissionette and O'Neill presumably). They are incensed that the former SEALS went public with their claims. But two things are clear.

1. The raid was real, conducted by SEALS, and is consistent with what has been officially announced.

2. Bin Ladin was alive when the raid started and was dead when it ended. And all of his records are in our hands.​

I think you'd best drop the helicopter business. There is no denying that these aircraft were specially designed for covert raids, were used on this raid and there was nothing better available or, as you say, they would have picked it.

Neither of us are stupid, but one doesn't have to be stupid to get it wrong. You don't even have to be wrong. But in a debate forum, you do have to back up your claims with something more than "trust me". Or the sanctimonious asses will pick it apart.