The contradictions are inherent and have been pointed out. Your attempts to smooth them away are understandable, but unconvincing. An opinion based on the fact that you consider Luther to be heretical and me as well. The point is that the disagreement is neither new, small, nor without credence. But as a non-Catholic, I don't have to accept your opinions because I think you are mislead and misinformed. We see what we see. Not all of the explanations hold water for us. Nuance I understand. Invoking nuance to smokescreen simple observations I understand as well. I reiterate, people who don't have to take your word for it, understand that the well-defined terms for prayer and deity make Mary a candidate in Catholic practice. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, and acts like a duck, then it is a duck. Well yes, those that disagree started leaving 500 years ago and number in the hundreds of millions. It leaves a very docile, dogmatic, and defensive group behind. The point that you missed is that many Catholics do wish to venerate Mary even more so than she is. To the point of Co-deity.
I realize this, but it is fun and easy to use their own book to challenge them. Sure, but unlike you and martin, I really don't object to people holding strange beliefs. I just challenge them when they try to tell me the bible is the litteral truth or to deny science with mythology. I also do it when Steve is pulling my chain and to piss off Supa, who has sworn an oath to contradict me whenever possible.
I have no doubt of your motivations, Red, and frankly I enjoy watching them squirm. Perhaps Martin and I are not wise enough to know better. I have less disdain for them than Martin does, but I still marvel at how very smart people will completely suspend their sense of intellect in the name of religion.
I wonder sometimes if alot of these politicians are religious or if they just like the church dollar.
They are only contradictions if they are spoken in the same context. None of the items you have pointed out are. That is not relevant. Catholic teaching has always been sourced from sacred scripture and sacred tradition. Luther rejected the latter even though there was no biblical basis to support the bible being the sole source of revalation. Boss, when I tell you what I beleive you have to accept that. I am the mother fucking master of my own opinions. What I beleive is that Catholic teaching does not deify Mary. That is what has been taught to me by the Magisterium of the Church. There is one diety, and it is God. There is quite frankly no debate. It is the profession of Faith. We beleive in one God. Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. You say you understand nuance then completely ignore it. I suppose you could correctly say Marian adoration is similar to worship. However, the entire Catholic faith is built on the beleif in One God, and no Church teachings state Marian adoration is equal to worship, which is reserved for God alone. It is one thing to disagree with a doctrine and a whole other to tell the group that promulgated the doctrine what they beleive. I understand you cannot see a distinction, but that doesn't mean one isn't there. 1.2 billion Catholics, and 600 million Orthodox Christians see it. In terms of Catholic beleif veneration is not the same as worship, and the point that you miss is the wants of practioners do not make Catholic dogma. Nobody recognizes Mary as an equal to the Triune God, and that is where your straw man falls apart. Some may beleive she has some sub-ordinate delegated role, but that role is entirely based on God.
There is a formula. Add the extent to which the candidate is intellectual to the extent to which the candidate is ambitious and the extent to which the candidate was exposed to multiple religions as a child. If this add up to a lot, you have an atheist liar politician on your hands. Say hello to mike Bloomberg and dick Cheney and Obama.
Repeating yourself. I disagree about the "context", it's just spin to explain away the contradictions. Oh no? How long will it take for you to suggest otherwise . . . Well, that didn't take long! Yes, I am heretical, it is relevant, and I think you don't practice what you preach. I don't know and I don't care about your beliefs. Just pointing out the contradictions with the well-understood definitions of prayer and deity. So Mary is only an assistant God, like JC and the Holy Ghost? And 1.6 billion Protestant Christians don't. We don't have to accept what we don't see. Oh I believe that, because many confused practioners do a lot of praying to Mary, which most Christians (the Protestants) do not.
Red, I'm not really pulling your chain....but I repped you for that statement because it's such a great idea !! (Just kidding...you know I respect your debate abilities). I just stayed out of the debate because I really do have faith and I explained what I believe concerning the pope, Mary etc. and left it at that. I literally laughed out loud a few times when I was reading the debate between you and Supa. Martin especially made me chuckle with that comment about you two being close to sorting it out...that was funny. It doesn't really matter if we disagree on Faith. Supa, you did a great job of explaining the Catholic teachings. Good discussion all around.
How do any of the verses you cited conradict each other? You repeating that they do, void of any context does not make it so. Make your case. I didn't suggest otherwise in the second statement. The point that you continually miss is what you perceive to be church doctrine is not inline with the doctrines. You can opine however you like, but opinions can be wrong. Your opinions are based on what you know of Catholic teaching which is shaky at best. Mary is not a God at all, and JC and the Spook are "one in being with the father," aka, the same dude. Two things. One, there are only 800 million protestants, two I don't expect you to accept what you don't understand. I expect you to understand that your statements about what Catholic doctrine teaches are errant and not reflective of Catholic belief. You choose to not see a distinction, but ask any old lady on her knees, in front of a statue, counting beads what she is doing and none will indicate they are worshiping Mary. And again, most Christians are not protestants. Most are Catholic (1.2 billion of 2.2 billion).
