LSU v Alabama (Hoops): A tale of two Programs

Well, folks, my momma used to tell me if you have nothing good to say about something, don't say it all. I would guess that (to some degree) folks on this board would believe the same. Call it apathy, call it just polite reserving of tongue, but make no bones about it. Yesterday's loss to Alabama is more of the same, another bad loss. On the road, to the SEC West leading Tide, but nevertheless, a loss where a relatively close first half game (one that was played by LSU in primarily man to man, abandoning the Zone), gives way to a blowout in the second half. I won't get too much into the game frankly, it's kind of more of the same from this season--lack of some toughness, losing the rebounding battle by a large margin, not being able to hit shots, turnovers leading to bama points, and a slew of other things. I continue to think that the bright spot here are Ralston Turner is just coming back, our leading scorers are two freshmen, Stringer and Derenbecker, who in some respects scored more and played well against Alabama's freshman PG (Releford--interestingly, a recruiting choice that came down to Stringer to LSU and Releford to Alabama between two similar guards) and So. guard (Steele). But, Alabama's more experienced, more athletic and frankly harding playing defense was the difference. Our inconsistency and poor play on the frontline continue to plague the Tigers.

But, the point of this thread wasn't to talk about another loss, whether Trent should go, blah blah. To me, in this recent "era" we call LSU basketball, and the "Trent Johnson" era, what was interesting about this game is always going to be the debate... Trent Johnson vs. Anthony Grant. Afterall, when Brady was on the hot seat and ultimately replaced, I supported going after Grant. Frankly, it was rumored he was a leading candidate (along with Tony Bennett), and then, whether there was contact or not, Alleva went in a different direction. Of course, in '08-'09, Trent won the SECC and went 27-8. And, later that year, Anthony Grant would be hired from VCU to Alabama.

In '09-'10, Anthony Grant inherited a reasonably good team... after all, the complaint with Gottfried at Alabama wasn't his recruiting, it was his coaching. But, Anthony Grant went 17-15. Trent, of course, with most of his experienced team gone, went 11-20. Recruiting wise, both coaches had what I'd call B+ classes in 2010. Trent loaded up with Guards (Stringer, Derenbecker and Turner), Grant just needed to fill spots in a few places, which he did.

What's my point of all of this? Well, one point I have to make is that right now, folks are probably wondering did LSU make the right call? I think it's a fair question, and one that Alleva will probably have to live with depending on what happens over the next few years. I certainly don't think that "all is lost" with CTJ, b/c I do think he's a more experienced coach that had a history of rebuilding programs when he was hired. I think Grant frankly could have been criticized more for this job he did in his first year, which was frankly, a good team that Mark left behind--he certainly didn't win the SEC like Trent did. Grant has recruited reasonably well, although also, like Trent, it's taken time to develop his story. Now, the records show, SECC, a 11-20 bottoming out and currently a 10-11 season for Trent versus Grant's record 17-15 in his first year and 14-7 this year so far. I do wonder if Alabama will win the SECW and the SEC--probably not, but I think if they don't win the SECW it'll be a little bit of an underachievement based on the teams at this state.

I'll just make the point that I continue to believe that the real underlying cause for most success and failures is recruiting, and well, Trent had a deck of card he played. Likewise, Grant is still to some degree "playing" with Mark's players, on top of which, he layered a few of his recruits. I'll also continue to say that Trent didn't have much to work with beyond his class that he won the SECC with, and now, is trying to build from the ground up from his 2010 class forward (I will acknowledge that he arguably underachieved with his 2009 class).

But, I do want to also turn my attention to something that has always irked me a little bit about the LSU faithful, that are now wondering what has happened to the LSU basketball program. Well, first, if you have a macro view of how a program is built, you'll say, that it's not gone, it's just rebuilding, the problems have been systemic for some time in the recruiting. I'll also say that the difference between a 17-15 season or a 14-18 season, shouldn't make a whole lot of difference to fans. Make no bones about it, LSU should be winning and winning more, but my point is that many college teams go 17-15, 19-13, and don't make the tournament. The measure of success is obviouly making post season tournaments and going far, but it's still your college, your team and an SEC program worth supporting. Whether LSU goes 13-19 or 14-18 or 16-16 the rest of the way, should LSU fans just be LSU fans and support the team? They may not make any post-season tourney, but they've got some good young players, who will hopefully stay at LSU for 3 more years and well, I'm contending (and certainly hoping) that LSU will be pretty darn good in a year or two, with who Trent has committed and is recruiting.

But there continues to be quite some negativity here. "Why isn't LSU a basketball school?" "What kind of job of recruiting has Trent done?" "Why can't LSU be good?" and outright taking shots at players. Does that speak well of a program that LSU and Trent are trying to build? Some criticisms are deserved... certainly when LSU is routinely being blown out, something is wrong. But, again, I make the comparisons between two SEC schools, LSU and Alabama. Let's just strip away all of the peripheral arguments that folks make... LSU is in football country. Basketball isn't the sport that's played in the south. The basketball team is sandwiched between football and baseball (and some would argue football recruiting is its own sport). Folks don't have the funds to go to basketball games.... I've heard it all. So, let's just compare ourselves to 'Bama shall we? Now, their program has sunk a good deal of $ into the hoops program--their coliseum seats 15,383 to our PMAC which seats 13,472. Take a look at their coliseum upgrades made (new video boards in 2009-10 and completely regutting it in 2005-6), take a look at their media guide online, take a look at their ticket prices (a little less than LSU's). Then, look at their attendance... in a "down year" in Gottfried's last season, they averaged paid attendance 9960 (65% capacity), and then in Grant's first year, they averaged 10945 (71% capacity). This year they're averaging 10529 right now (which is likely to go up as SEC season continues). They SOLD OUT their game against LSU yesterday (perhaps vengence for football and a known win?), and they had about 14600 people go to the Kentucky game. Keep in mind, this is a program that has never been to a final four, and didn't go to a tournament at all the year before. In Trent's first year, LSU averaged 77% capacity (respectable, but note the Tigers were 27-8 and won the SEC). Last year it was 66%, and this year so far, it's a 52% capacity. Say what you will about who's to blame for this season, but fan support and a supportive hoops atmosphere is critical to any college program that wants to be any good.

Now, obviously Trent knows he needs a better product on the floor, and he's partially to blame for this team's performance and recruiting. But, for the program to truly be a national power, investments from the fans, the school and the administration, have to be there in addition to Trent and his team. Momentum frankly has to be built for Trent's 2012 recruiting class. That's really what keeps me up at night... Does a kid like Ricardo Gathers want to stay in state to play ball at the flagship university in LA? Or does he want to go to of all places, California, or worse yet, Alabama? Does Javon Felix (who has an offer from Alabama and Ole Miss, by the way) want to leave? Hopefully the LSU fans, students and administration don't let that happen. While I get that LSU fans are passionate and speak their mind and perhaps they want Trent's head, I hope folks will realize that one of the reasons why Grant's team is better now is that recruiting that Gottfried, that coliseum, and those fans did. Trent is building a program based upon signing 3-4 kids a year who have the ability to help his program long term. And so, we can't afford any more "hiccups" in recruiting like we have seen in the past.

This program will turn the corner and we've got to help them get there. Until we're back at the top, I'll continue to be watching LSU vs Alabama in hoops. :geaux::bball::geauxtige

 

Nice comparison but I'll also throw out there that Bama isn't used to any type of success in basketball so that hunger for something more is there for the fan base. LSU basketball, like football, has had some successes and fans look for more. If it isn't there then there isn't the support game to game, season to season. At this point even a consistent product would go a long way in getting butts in seats.

Now I'm a glass half full guy and I always try to seek the positive but that game last night was agonizing to watch. It doesn't look like we even have a press break offense judging the number of times we turned the ball over in the 2nd half. On the other hand we did average at or a bit better against Bama in the defensive statistics so there is a little bit left in that glass. I listen to the announcers, some with pretty decent resume's, and they all seem to think Johnson will get this worked out. I hope he does because I really hate to see this team struggle with being successful. Getting blown out 3 games in a row can lead to a downward spiral that may be hard to recover.

 

Great post. A big problem is the student body lacks pride in their team. Too many douches on campus jumping on the Duke or UNC bandwagon once football season ends. LSU hoops is important to me and I hope it can get back to a respectable level soon. In the meantime though, I'm gonna enjoy watching the development of kids like Stringer, Derenbecker and Turner and wait for reinforcements. No sense in supporting another institution, just gotta live with the team we have for now.

My question though - since I've only seen a handful of games and they've all been low quality online streams - why does our frontcourt struggle so much? I thought going into the year that Storm and White would give us a good combination up front, but they routinely get outrebounded and can't seem to give us the easy buckets we need.

 

The team is too inexperienced to be any better than .500. I really wish I could be like a guest speaker at a film session just to point out to them the flaws that they have, because they are so noticeable watching a game. I remember Garrett Green tracking down a long rebound, only to launch a fall away 3 pointer from the corner. That's a ****ty shot, and a player should know not to shoot it. Honestly, I would probably lose my mind if I was coaching and he shot that. He might sit the rest of the night on the bench, because that's just inexcusable to think you are going to make it.

I still like 3 pieces on the team, Turner, Stringer, and Derenbecker. They all will be a year older and have an offseason of practice for next year and will be a formidable match up if they can boost their shooting %'s about 10% each. That would move each well into the 40's or higher and give us a lot of offense.

The rest of the team, I gotta hope they graduate soon and we have good replacements. Malcolm White is horrid offensively, and his mechanics are just bad. He looks like he has robotic arms and his movements don't look natural. He still hasn't gotten into his head that he is a center, and his offense consists of jump shots, which he cannot make. He's gotten better defensively, but he's still too foul prone to be anything more than a back up.

 

I'll tell you one area where Trent Johnson and the LSU team are head and shoulders above Bama, and that is class.

Why in the hell was Bama pressing up 20 some odd points under 4 minutes?

 

I would complain but you have to keep playing. Hell it should have been good practice in breaking the press. I bet that gets remembered in future games.

 

I don't know if this team will win another game. I mean it's one thing to lose but 4 blowouts in a row. I am now beginning to question if Trent is the right person for this job. As a lifelong tiger bb fan I have never seen this program in such bad shape not even in the last years of Brown.

 

Basketball at LSU has never enjoyed the kind of built-in, cultural support football has developed over the decades, or the way basketball programs have this advantage at ACC and Big East schools. Absent that, a winning tradition has to be established to draw fans and keep them coming back.

Our fans need a ray of hope, something, anything to be able to hang their hat on and get them buying tickets and showing up. Frankly, it isn't enough to tell would-be fans to wait for that 2012 class to come in and tear it up. They need to see something concrete now, and getting blown out game after game is going to push them in the opposite direction. It is possible to draw fans winning 16, 15, or 14 games, but this team needs to show signs of life and potential. They need to show that they can win the occasional game against a team that they have no business beating. When was the last time LSU did that? Maybe Duke in the FF run? If you have to sit down and think about it, then that's way too long.

Fan support is the least of LSU's worries right now. If Trent gets a winning mindset instilled in his kids and get his teams to become consistent contenders for SECC's, then the attendance issue will take care of itself IMO. People like to point to the FF year to say that it can't happen. I would argue that fans simply got sick of nearly a decade of the 3 years down, 1 year up cycle. Any casual fans that would've supported the program at that point were turned off by the mediocre-to-bad teams that followed the boom year. Consistent winning will be the key to building a long-term fan base for basketball.

 

I agree with the sentiment of "win and they will come". Of course, a winning program will bring out the bandwagon fans, and LSU hasn't been winning. But, the point I was making is even if a team isn't winning, you have "fan support"... LSU hoops seems to have less of it than say, Alabama, Arkansas, maybe even places like Miss St in the SEC West, who arguably are comparable if not worse teams. You can't say this is all b/c of us being in the SEC or football country--these are all comparable SEC peers. When you look at LSU basketball history, this also seems even more disappointing, when you consider outside of Kentucky, LSU has been to more final fours than any other SEC school. Only a handful of others, like Florida and Arkansas, have been the Final Four (granted they have both one a NC). So, it's not enough just to say "put a winning product on the floor", LSU has put winning products on the floor and still not reached a capacity crowd average like in the 80s-early 90s. It also disappoints me because, at some level, if you support your team, pack the house, you help them win.

Now, I understand that may be a little bit of a pipedream, if LSU consistently lays an egg. But, that was my point about fans. I do think for example, where are the students--as a previous poster said. They get in for practically free, and I think the players would appreciate it, recruits appreciate it. When folks why are Kentucky, Kansas, UNC, Duke getting the top players, I do think things like Midnight Madness, fan support, etc. make a difference in their minds.

In any case, though, I do agree, LSU has to get back to consistently winning, consistently challenging for the SECW. Do that, and fans need to (and hopefully will) come back.

 

You're close, but still a bit off base with this one. It's a generational gap right now with the Bama BB fan base.

There's is no one that can touch UK in tradition. That's a given. But, when it comes to titles—regular season and tournaments—Bama's right there with UT for 2nd. LSU isn't far behind...maybe a combined total of 11 vs UT and UA with 13?

You get to those fans who are old enough (30's and up) to remember what kind of teams Wimp Sanderson had along with CM Newton...you'll find a fan base that wants more.

FWIW, CM Newton was the main guy looking for our coach when we hired Grant. It was Newton's first choice.