I meant to say Fisher, but stupid TF won't let me edit the post. Spurs on the brain I suppose, though Parker shouldn't be lauded either given his nationality.
Pippen made it to the East Finals without MJ the year MJ played baseball, so to say someone who is an All-Time Top 50 player is not "spectacular" is just plain dumb. I also love how we are saying that any team with Lebron on it would have success. You put Cleveland in the West, they are bye-bye in round 1. Just look at the records. Even with their Eastern schedule, they won only 50 games, which would have been 6th in the east. That matches them up with the Spurs, so we all know how that matchup would have gone. I also love how Kobe "ran Shaq out of LA", even though both Kobe and Shaq have now openly admitted this was a story made up by the Lakers, so the organization didn't get the blame for Shaq leaving. I also love how Kobe suddenly has a supporting cast? When you compare what he has to what any other team in the west has, it's mind boggling how untalented their team is. If he gets traded to the East, he will be in the Finals next year, no matter what team he is on, because he is money when the chips are on the table, unlike Lebron. And he may not be the "best defender", b/c Bowen is, but he has won All-Defense 7 times in his career. that's not too shabby for someone who uses the amount of energy he does on the other end of the floor. The Lakers GM is just an idiot. Plain and simple. Kidd, Artest, J-O'Neal, etc... have all tried to pry themselves to Los Angeles, but the team is trying its best to protect a 20-year old big man, Bynum, who is nothing more than a bust.
:hihi: Great post up until that statement. I like the Rockets as well and expressed before that I felt bad for T-Mac for taking the blame for the series loss. He didnt lose it for them it was just unfortunate events and blown shots from the role players.Yes, I catch much flack for being a boring Jazz fan throughout the years but you now see why they have always been my team from my above posts. I love the way they play the game almost like a chess match. Sloan is an incredible coach who seems to get the best out of his players no matter who is on the roster. Its weird that I think the Jazz are so exciting but the Spurs are too boring to watch. I cant help it, I guess I just like to see good fundamental basketball and I just hate the Spurs and Duncan whinning. I know, I know. I am waiting for the Jazz fan comments complaining about things they dont understand. I cant really argue that one. Or can I?:hihi:
I hate that too. If you click the Go Advanced tab before or after you make the correction it usually does the trick.:thumb:
Both LeBron and Kobe are great players. LeBron hugs more teammates, chest bumps his coaches, when he takes responsibility for his team's failures...he doesn't whine and therefore comes off as sincere, not pompous and egotistical. I think this relates to that mystical term, team chemistry. Projecting here; Kobe is the flashy kid who when he fights, shows off his quickness by punching, backing off, and trash talking. LeBron may not have the complete game yet, but he watches-learns-improves and he will look you in the eye when it is Mano-a-Mano. If I had to choose which one had my back I would take LeBron.
Pippen was not a spectacular player IMO even though he made it the the East Finals. The Bulls had very low turnover and the team chemistry without Jordan was still there. I enjoyed watching Pippen too and think he was a good player but not off the charts. I agree with your statement about Lebron, I guess I was thinking of him down the road. He hasnt even developed his full potential yet and that is scary. I was thinking more in the terms that he is a team player and everyone around him plays better because of it. His supporting cast was far from good as well since he has been in the league.
Y'all are both right about Lebron. Some of that is he's more image-conscious than Kobe (and MUCH better at cultivating it), but an equally big part is that they essentially play different positions. Lebron is a natural PG (though they'll never let him play there, which they can't because the GM can't find a legit #2.) Kobe is a natural 2 or 3, and his skill set is different than Lebron's (e.g. passing, court vision, PG-like leadership.) Each has their natural place on a team. I can't wait to see Lebron develop. If the Mensas in Cleveland (or his next destination) can get some players with him, he'll be a marvel to watch. Hell, he already is with a pretty mediocre crew.
I agree with both bhelm and no limit, if that's possible. I hate Kobe and love the fact that he will NEVER win another title because he is a selfish A$$. I don't think he's the best player in the league either, but he does have a HORRIBLE supporting cast. And because of his sellfishness, he doesn't make players around him better a la MJ. Im the biggest MJ fan in the world and also agree that Kobe will NEVER come close to Jordan. When MJ first started in the league, he was like Kobe and was a me-first player and didn't trust his teammates. But it didn't take MJ long to figure out he had to be a team player to win a championship, heck 6 titles. But for some reason, Kobe just doesn't get it. For all his talent, it's going to waste cause he's a one-man show. With the exception of Rodman, all of MJ's teammates didn't do squat before or after MJ. And yes Im including Pippen. I LOVED Scottie, but if it wasn't for MJ, Scottie wouldn't be considered a HOF player. When Scottie went on to Houston and Portland, he wasn't an all-star. When Horace Grant left to Orlando, he did nothing. And all the "role" players during the MJ years (Kerr, Wennington, Tucker, Hodges, etc.) played above their heads because of MJ. Not that they were great by any means, but they knew there "role" and played it well. That's what Kobe can't do. And until he gives up the me-first mentality, he will not win another title or be considered one the the greats.
okay, so let's right another wrong here. when Pippen got traded to the Rockets, he was 34. Not many all-stars are crowned at that age. He made it to the east finals, and finished 3rd in MVP voting without MJ when he was in his prime. Hell, even at 34, he always averaged 15-17 pts a game. As far as Horace Grant goes, he averaged 12.6 in his 7 years with the bulls, and he averaged 12.0 in his 5 years in Orlando, his fifth year, he was 34, too, so his numbers tailed off a bit. Grad can probably vouche for this as a fan of the team, but he was a huge part of the finals team.
The "Was Pippen a champion without MJ" question for me was answered with this event. He didn't have a champion's mettle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottie_Pippen Perhaps the most infamous episode of Pippen's career came in the post-season of Pippen's first year without Jordan, the 1993-94 playoffs, where the Eastern Conference semifinals pitted the Bulls against their bitter rivals, the New York Knicks. On May 13, 1994, down 2-0 in the series and tied 102-102 in Game Three, Bulls coach Phil Jackson needed a big play from his team to have any hope of advancing to the next round of the playoffs. With 1.8 seconds left and the score tied, Jackson designed the last play for Toni Kukoč, with Pippen relegated to simply inbounding the basketball. Pippen, who had been the Bulls' leader all season long in Jordan's absence, was so angered by Jackson's decision to not let him take the potential game-winner that he refused to leave the bench and re-enter the game when the timeout was over. Although Kukoč did eventually hit the game-winner, a 23-foot fadeaway jumper, there was little celebrating to be done by the Bulls, as television cameras caught an unsmiling Phil Jackson storming out of the arena. "Scottie asked out of the play," Jackson would tell reporters moments later in the post-game interview room. Those seeking further answers found Pippen in the locker room after the game, looking shell-shocked and disoriented; when asked to confirm Jackson's statement, Pippen could only respond with "Yeah, pretty much ... We exchanged words, and I just took a seat." Teammate Steve Kerr elaborated when recently asked to recall the event: "I was shocked," he said. "The only way to describe it was total disbelief. Here was a guy who had done so much for our team, who had been our leader all year long. He was, and still is, one of the greatest teammates I've ever had. But on that day, I think all the pressure and frustration of our season caught up with him, and he snapped." Pippen later apologized to his teammates after the incident.
