Where in the muslim world have we established a democracy, or even attempted to? Just pick anyone of yours. You haven't made any factual statements, only opinions. Your "opinions" on foreign relations are silly and childlike. You're very naive. Also, who said I was trying to debate you? Why debate an ignorant person? It's futile.
Well, I thought that's just what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan. I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure about this one. I'm going on memory here so it's not "fact-checked" but didn't Bush II announce this as one of the main points of his Middle East policy. "making the world safe for democracy" I think was the phrase. This is an odd way to have a debate (the insults, i mean) but I agree, it is difficult to have a good debate with ignorant people. Hell, it's hard to have a good debate with educated people. I've obviously rubbed you the wrong way. It is not personal and I have total respect for our military, etc. I get the impression you were a Marine from you sig. My dad was in the military as well as my cousin who was in the first Gulf War. Hell, as a kid I wanted to join the Air Force. I have nothing against the military but I do think it is not being used in our national interest. It's caused a lot of pain for military families not to mention the enormous costs involved. And this application of our military force hasn't really been beneficial to the US as far as I can tell. If I am wrong, and I may be, I would just like to know what is it about Iraq or Iran that threatened the US?
Originally posted by Shane911: Well, you could be right about my lack of understanding on the balance of power in the middle east. As far as I understand there is one nuclear power there. Israel....with an undisclosed number of nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them. The IDF has also whipped the living daylights out of the Arabs in everyway whenever given the chance, to my knowledge. Please tell me what I a missing here, in the balance of power equation. I agree the Presidents probably would prefer not to have this problem. Why do we insist on carrying this burden? How does it benefit us? The muslim world is outmatch by Israel. Does anyone here disagree with this statement? c
My man, you have GOT to get off of this Isreal thing. You have to understand how unstable that whole region is without Isreal even in the picture. Did Iran fight with Iraq for what 7 years or more? What do you think Isreal had to do with that? Did Iraq invade Quwait and try to take everything that was rightfully theirs? Where is Isreals involvement there? Syria gets full of piss and vinegar every once and while and likes to poke their finger in peoples chest. They all HATE each other. They hate everything everywhere and the ONLY thing they agree on collectively is their hatred for Isreal. That is what is so important about the BOP, we cannot under any circumstance let any one of them become any more powerful than they already are. Iran was licking their chops after the fall of saddam. We had taken him from power, obliterated his military and told what was left of it to hit the bricks. (HUGE mistake IMO and a very big reason it turned into such a mess) Iraq was defenseless if not for the US presence there and had we left after the fall of saddam would have been swallowed up by the iranian war machine in less time than it took for us to get to baghdad. I will give you that our alliance with Isreal will always be something that sticks in the craw of the camel jockeys. It is however a drop in the bucket along with so many more as to why they are the way they are.
Well, I certainly agree it is our best interest to not face a united Islamic state. A 21st century incarnation of the Ottoman Empire would certainly be tough to tangle with and honestly, I don't know if the US can get out cleanly now but we have stirred up a hornets nest and the longer we stay there I think it is more likely to unite them even more. But it's hard for me to sort out exactly what the course of action is now. I know starting a war with Iran would cause serious problems so I hope we take no part in that. It just seems bizarre to me that we are the largest consumer of oil and they are the largest producer of oil and we have all these conflicts. We should be able to do good business with one another. My motivation is waning on this thread so I will finish with this.....I hope the Palestinians get some pseudo-statehood soon. It would be good political cover to get out of the region as much as possible and try to spend money building golf resorts and pilgramige tours through the region.
Good because I wouldn't want to have to break your heart and explain to you that we don't get the bulk of our oil from them anyway.
Good Lord, I am aware of that but there is a finite number of barrels on the market. Obviously a war with Iran would cause the price of oil to spike. This was my point. And as someone mentioned earlier, I have no interest in paying $15 a gallon for gas.
At least he capitalized Marine. He gets points for doing that. :thumb: At the time I lived and worked with the IDF, I wasn't what you would call a religious man. I had spent the last six years in the Marine Corps Infantry and about all I cared about was fighting and shooting. Instead of the Bible I studied the Marine Corps field manuals. I advocated violence, not forgiveness. Israel touched me in a way. I'm not jewish but this didn't matter to the Israelis. They, as a group, are the most opened minded people I've ever been around. They live in a state of open war that most here could never imagine much less deal with. They, however, are also some of the most peace loving people on earth. They're not the instigators of the violence there but the recipients. The way they're able to show restraint is awe inspiring. You're right flabengle, they could wipe most of the middle east of the map if they were so inclined. One of the biggest reasons they don't is because we're here to help them. They are a shinning light in a sea of darkness. Nowhere outside of Israel do the three major religions coexist openly like they do there. The majority of the rest of the region is filled with hatred, malice, and death. Study the history flabengal, and I would recommend starting with the Bible. Something tells me that you're not a religious person so look at it as historical research. You'll soon understand that they, Israel, has just as much right to that land as anyone else. You mentioned the palestinians...,have you ever wondered why no one else over there has done anything at all to aid their strife? Do you know where they came from? Do a little looking and tell me where they came from and who sent them there. I think you will be surprised. Some of those friends I mentioned earlier are palestinian. It's been awhile since we talked, much less seen each other, but I have no doubt that they would welcome me with open arms if were to be fortunate enough to meet again. Granted, they're not typical of the inhabitants there and our friendship was established during a time of relative peace. A palestinian state isn't the answer. Giving them Israeli land will never be the answer. Would we willingly give the mexicans back land that we took from them...well, maybe that's not the best example but you see what I'm trying to say. The palestinians could have a much better existence. All they have to do is stop killing others. That's it...just stop killing Israelis and live together in peace. The rest of the middle east will not allow that to happen however and my faith leads me to believe that it isn't meant to be anyway. There can be no utopia on earth. We will not one day just put our differences aside and start hugging each other. The sooner you accept this the better. We were blessed to be born Americans. We were given a better chance than 90% of the rest of the world. Enjoy this fact and stop feeling guilty for those less fortunate. It's not their fault that they were born where they were and they're just doing what they think is in their best interest...we should do the same instead of trying to coddle them and making penitence for our good fortune. I agree that we shouldn't be building empires...and we're not. But it is in our best interest, and the best interest of my children, to take the fight to those who would chose to engage us instead of waiting for them to bring the fight to us. Our resolve, might, and strength is what keeps us safe. Germany wasn't looking to fight us and we kept out of the fight far longer than we should have in WWII. We paid the price and learned that we can not simply watch from a distance while evil men do evil things and hope and pray that it doesn't spill over on us. 9/11 was our generations Pearl Harbor, and just like then, we paid the price for our lack of resolve.
