Gas Prices!

I don't think that's what he's saying. I know you don't agree with them, but antitrust laws do exist for a reason. I think all he's asking for is to make sure those laws aren't being violated. I know big oil has been before Congress in the past, but they balked when asked to testify under oath and only agreed after that stipulation was dropped. If they don't have anything to hide, what's the problem with testifying under oath?

As for collusion not affecting the free market, I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on what the free market is. If I understand correctly, your position is that big oil should be able to conspire to set and keep the price of gas at $10.00 if they so choose. If the demand is there, people will pay for it. If not, they will drop prices.

My position is that collusion is not free market because, by all of them conspiring to set the price of gas a price at X amount per gallon, it stymies the competition that they normally have amongst themselves and unncessarily drives prices up; when prices wouldn't otherwise rise.

Again, my whole argument is based on my belief that there is some kind of collusion involved in prices being as high as they are. If there's no collusion, I don't have a problem with it. If there is, I do.

 

why they should they testify at all? if the government wanted to me to testify, i would tell them to leave me alone. the government shouldnt have the right to make anyone testify about whatever they please. no crime has been committed, nothing has happened, no testifying necessary. what are they investigating? oil profits? what's to investigate? businesses exist to make maximum profits! the idea that they can make "too much" profit implies that they do not own the oil, and they are not allowed to manage it as they please. but that isnt true.

again, when somebody owns something, and they want to sell it, or even if they do not want to sell it at any price, that is their right. there is nothing to investigate. if oil companies got together and said "yunno, we prefer just owning oil to trading it to you for money, we are just gonna sit on it and sell nothing" that is their right. such is the nature of private property.

correct. they would either lower prices, or consumption would go down drastically, driving billions into alternatives and saving the earth.

the competition isnt just between oil and oil. it is between oil and solar and wind and hydrogen and coal and switchgrass hydro and and nuclear and ethanol. all these other guys are competing with oil. you act like energy only comes in one form. we could drive electric cars powered by nuclear plants if we had to. we just dont have to. there are so many different other forms of energy.

when all forms of energy are colluding to raise prices and you cannot afford it, that is a problem. the fabulous thing about a free market is that this would never happen, because somebody always wants to sell something, and not just price everyone out of the market. and unless a government is involved, you cannot force anyone to not collude. only governments can force their will on people.

the reason an item costs what it does is of no concern to you. the system works best when the person who owns product x decides how much they are willing to sell the product for. you decide how much to sell your things for, not theirs. if their reason for deciding on the price they decide on is that they love massive profit, then so be it.

 

Because they're supposed to be investigating any violation of anti-trust laws. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they don't have to be followed.

To my knowledge, there are no solar, wind, or hydrogen cars available. I could be wrong about that. I know electric cars have been invented, but what dealer is selling them? Plus, unless something about them has changed, they're not practical to drive on interstates. There are hybrids available and those are great, but they're still dependent on gas.

At least you concede that collusion in and of itself is a problem.

You don't have the right to tell me what I can and can't be concerned about.

 

anti-trust laws are insane. there is no need for them.

electric cars are solar cars, wind cars. electricity comes from all different sources. right now you can buy a hybrid and have it taken to a company who does full electric conversion and it runs off a plug in your house. yunno why you dont do this? no need. if oil were truly too expensive, electric cars would be far cheaper, mass produced and high quality.

i absolutely do not, that was a non-possible theoretical. somebody wants to sell to consumers, somebody always wants money. the more people collude, the more it opens of opportunities for those who are not colluding. and, unless the government or somebody else with guns is controlling things, the non-colluders will make out like gang busters selling for a price below the colluders. that is why collusion isnt a problem. i guarantee you the guy making new electric/hyrbrid/biodiesel technology or whatever cars wants the oil industry to collude to raise prices, because he will be happy to take their profits. the VC looking for a place to put his money, he loves it when oil prices go up. and when he invests in a new private nuclear plant, that is necessary to power our society as it uses more electricity and less oil, he will be the guy making profits. maybe at that time you can investigate him and try and take his money.

true, but i do think it is immoral for you to try and control things you do not own. i think it ruins society when people start trying to control things collectively instead of individually. i think it is waste of your mental effort to question about why something costs what it does. of course it is profit! thats the answer. nothing wrong with it.

 

Irrelevant. They are

I dunno. I like the idea and may consider it if they come up with one large enough for my family to ride comfortably.

I could care less as long as it's done fairly. I've also been saying that about the current oil situation by the way

I'm not trying to control things. I've said from the beginning, I have no beef if there's no violation of existing laws.

 

if oil prices rise it becomes far more likely that a worthy electric car will be made. everything you do keep oil prices low just slows the process.

we simply disagree about what is fair. nobody selling anything can treat me unfairly, as long as i get the product and price i agreed on before i entered into the purchase. at no time will i purchase anything and care why it costs what it does. it is either worth it to me, or it isnt.

 

Let me ask you one last question and maybe this thread can die. ( :grin: )

Would you think its fair if gas stations along the Gulf Coast colluded to set gas prices to $10.00 a gallon right after a natural disaster like Katrina?

 

we have definitely been over this and why it is not only not wrong for them to do that, but important that they be able to, in order to properly maintain supply and prevent shortages. i addressed the topic of gouging earlier in the thread, and i did it beautifully:

man, i should get an award for that, what beautiful prose that is.