The Pakistani government is pro-US to get military support and foreign aid but the Pakistani people are virulently anti-US. This is an exact parallel to Iran in the late 70's. Pakistan is the most likely place for another Islamic revolution to happen. Amigo . . . if the place is unstable the government could change dramatically and then they would own the keys. Coups have been staged before before and the military is completely riddled with islamists bent on revolution. If the Taliban come to power, military-grade nuclear weapons will be in the hands of a radical islamic group that has already tried to attack the US. It could mean nuclear war with Pakistan and who knows how that would play out with the Russians and the Chinese, not to mention the Israelis and the Indians. Dude, get up to speed. Things are happening quickly. We invaded and took down Afghanistan for harboring terrorists that attacked the US. We invaded and took down Iraq over paranoid fears of terrorist attack. Now we have been attacked in New York by Pakistani terrorists while Al Qaeda continues to shelter there and the Taliban kill our troops in Afghnaistan and shsleter there, too.. How much more do you think we are going to put up with? Well yes, but this situation has existed since World War II, yet the United States has engaged in over 150 military operations including over 30 shooting wars. Naval War with 6 countries, air war with 16 countries, armed ground incursions into 8 countries and full-scale invasions/occupations of another 7 countries. We are engaged in air strikes within Pakistan right now. The notion that we are too powerful to be challenged is simply not tenable.
Red: Fully admit Pakistani politics is not a strong point...are the Taliban really in a position to challenge the Pakistan government? Red: Are you talking about that car bomb guy? Good God, man we are quick on the trigger these days. Red: Well, actually that's kind of my point....at least we agree on the facts, I guess it's a matter of interpretation but the US military is much more likely to go cause trouble for Pakistan than the Pakistani military doing anything to us. I tell you what I think in a nutshell, I think the US government or parts of it are always finding different reasons to keep the gravy train going on military expenditures, budgets, etc. If you can keep the public convinced they are threatened they keep on clinging to the government for security. I think, in short is almost all propaganda to enable the government or persons within the government to enrich themselves. I'm not being a smartass here, Red...always enjoy FSA but I just can't get past this question: How does it benefit anyone to start a nuclear war with the US? Who would do this? Even the crazy guys want to live....they get someone else to go blow themselves up...it's never the leaders themselves. I think the US paints these guys as boogeymen to justify securing natural resources, etc. We never did find the WMDs but oh, gee....they sure have plenty of oil we can use....isn't that convenient?
I guess a war with Pakistan means we will wipe the terrorists away right? Wrong, they will just move to another country and do the same ****.
Really, really. Not today, but soon and they are gaining strength, not losing it. They have wide support among the illiterate people who get all their news and politics from islamist schools run by the Taliban, which means religious student in Arabic. The Pakistani middle class understands reality better but their politics are all over the map. But the Taliban teach, work and walk openly in Pakistan even though they have been responsible for numerous bombings including the murders in the Bombay hotels and the assassination of Benazir Bhutto, influencing the last election. The Taliban are not the only islamist faction in Pakistan. Al Qaeda is there and dozens of other groups, it is very volatile. The army is a major political power having staged coups and taken control of the country several time. It once had a very western-oriented professional officer corps, but many are now said to sympathize with the islamists. It is their hold on power that they jealously guard. No Pakistani government is stable and a coup or a revolution is always a threat. The war in Afghanistan and the presence of the Taliban an Al Qaeda exacerbate this. This is only the latest and only the tip of the iceberg. A line was crossed and it has fundamentally changed the game. Pakistan must now, at long last, deal with Allah's boys or we will. We could hardly be any clearer. The current, rational Pakistan military, sure. It's the last thing they want. But tell me, what do radical religious students in Pakistan gain by making war on the United States. It's going to buy them more of the same grief it bought them in Afghanistan. These religious zealots guys are not rational, they are hearing other voices and don't care if they die and everyone else dies with them. If the Taliban get control of the Pakistani military, they may absolutely start a war they will surely lose just to get in the first shot in the name of Allah. They are rapidly re-configuring away from giant Cold-war forces and mega-weapons, to those more effective against modern threats. But that's OK, its still cheaper than the Cold-War way. Wake up and smell the falafels, hombre. Ignoring this increasingly obvious problem is asking for another Pearl Harbor or 9/11. Pakistan is far more dangerous to us than Iran or North Korea. How did it benefit Al Qaeda to attack the WTC and the friggin' Pentagon? The 4th plane was headed for the White House or the Capitol. It brought on the jihad! It made us take down Afghanistan and Iraq and incur the wrath of the whole muslim world. Crazy islamists from all over are emulating them now. The fanatics are all crazy. Not all of Pakistan is that way, the problem comes if the crazies get control. They really aren't afraid to die or to kill if they can get the jihad that they want. In their fugged-up logic they cannot lose. If they kill us they win, if they kill themselves they win. Pakistan has little oil.
Where are they going to go? Who is going to shelter them? Nobody wants the job, not even Pakistan. Do you advocate doing nothing? Look, the idea is NOT to go to war with Pakistan. It is to force Pakistan to clean house or we will clean it for them and we won't be as tidy. They simply won't do it unless forced. That much is clear. They been fed some very big tasty carrots and they must be reminded about the big stick.
Where will they go. Not sure, somewhere else. Iraq,Afghan,Pak etc. will all again harbor terrorists when we leave. You cannot eradicate evil. And leave we will when we finally realize we can't borrow anymore money from the Chinese to finance this war. I suggest economic war against them. No money = No way to do anything.
We've conducted an economic war against Iran for 31 years and all it has done is inconvenience them. It takes cooperation among all nations and a military air, land, and sea blockade to stop trade. And that . . . is an act of war.
Pakistan, Suadi Arabia, and on and on. Most Americans just don't understand how culturally different western civilization is from the east. Combine that with poverty, no jobs, no education, and a religion that is repeatedly promoting suppression and intolerance, and you get an undeniable problem. I don't think most Americans realize that many people(envious or not) do not want to be like us. Blowing all their stuff up and throwing up a school probably won't change that either. Like it or not, catholicism had the biggest impact on western civilization, and Islam or Buddha on the east. As a country, we are unlikely to make a lasting cultural change for Muslims in general. And if we can't do that, there will probably always be a few of them around wanting to kill us and willing to die to do it. Will further attacks on Pakistan make them hate us less?
I agree, Thomas Friedman addresses this in his book The World is Flat, some of exactly what you are saying on why they are so angry and left behind. Its definitely cultural and based on oppression by religion.
Red: ok, grant you that and will make a prediction based upon that: The US military will not conduct any major operations in Pakistan. Ever. Afghanistan is the worlds number one producer of poppy though, and the drug business is pretty lucrative...US operations in Afghanistan will continue, as will those in Iraq. Predicition number 2....US military will never leave Iraq or Afghanistan. Ever. Red: Prediction no. 3: The US military or the Israeli military will take action against the Iranian government by 2012, probably sometime in 2011. The powers that be will spend the time in between building a case for war. The US military will not invade pakistan. Red: A valid question if you believe that Al Qaeda was behind 9/11. I choose to think otherwise. I would be willing to bet Mossad was behind it but I can't prove it. The official story is very questionable as is the idea of bringing democracy to the Middle East. It's a fool's errand, amigo. Red: If they pay lip service to cost effectiveness, etc. then great but war making is big business....as are all the contracts that go along with it....oil contracts, construction contracts, politcal payoff under hundreds of different international organizations that move into the newly created state....its massive business, much bigger than guarding the border with Mexico which would be a much more constitutionally valid operation for our military. Prediction 4, while I'm at it....the US will not be toppled from its perch a global hegemon because of military failures....if I were an adversary trying to cause troubles for the US I would try and rattle the financial markets good and hard....throw the future of the dollar in doubt and see what happens. The US economy is vulnerable, not the US military. Why would you attack someone where their strength is? It just doesn't make sense.
