Biblical Flood: Actual Event or Myth

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by flabengal, Oct 28, 2014.

  1. flabengal

    flabengal Founding Member

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    Funny you linked that video, I watched the entire thing this afternoon....Berlinski is somewhat obnoxious in his delivery but Hitchens takes it to another level. I swear to God, I don't care what the subject is I will comfortably stand on the opposing side to Hitchens and be right most of the time. It's interesting to watch because he is obviously intelligent but his conclusions are absurd.

    Regarding Berlinski, where did you expect him to work,"The Darwin Academy for Anti-Darwinianists"?
     
  2. flabengal

    flabengal Founding Member

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    Regarding the dating techniques, it seems to me....

    Shroud of Turin carbon dated to 600-1000 years old, then this happens:
    Scientist: We have proof that it is a fraud!
    Believer: The sample was contaminated!

    Dinosaur Bones carbon dated to 30,000 years old, then this happens:
    Believer: We have proof Evolution is a fraud!
    Scientist: The sample was contaminated!

    Did I get that right?
     
  3. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    No. Contaminated samples usually produce inconclusive results, not false positives. The shroud of Turin dating was some of the most scrutinized in history and all three samples agree on the age. Different cleaning procedures were employed by the three separate laboratories that dated the samples, and that even if some slight contamination remained, about two thirds of the sample would need to consist of modern material to swing the result away from a 1st Century date to a Medieval date.

    You adding the shroud of Turin to your scientific disbelief?

    Just curious, but are there any areas of science that interest you other than those that conflict with Hebrew mythology?
     
  4. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Which conclusion do you find to be absurd and why?

    He can work anywhere he likes. If he still worked at Stanford or another university he would have the full credentials of his department and the university behind him and his research. When he works at a "non-profit think tank" with a socio-political agenda, he must carry its academic credentials or lack of them with him as well. He isn't the first professor to discover that he can make more money catering to wealthy donors in the private sector than competing openly for research grants. But better pay does not constitute institutional qualifications or academic prestige.
     
  5. flabengal

    flabengal Founding Member

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    I am trimming some of your comments in the re-post just for clarity.

    Again, in an attempt to simplify my task I am focusing on one aspect, the chronology involved. You cannot reasonably expect me to tackle all aspects of evolutionary theory at once and the one I left out of this thread was biological part.

    I have a question regarding your comment on no actual dinosaur bones existing. I keep reading articles that use the word "dinosaur bone". Why do they keep using that terminology?

    Bone damage
    Close examination of the bones revealed that Sue was 28 years old when she died, making her the oldest T. rex known. Her PBS Nova episode reported she died in a seasonal stream bed, which washed away some small bones. During her life, this carnivore received several injuries and suffered from numerous pathologies.[2] An injury to the right shoulder region of Sue resulted in a damaged shoulder blade, a torn tendon in the right arm, and three broken ribs. This damage subsequently healed (though one rib healed into two separate pieces), indicating Sue survived the incident. The left fibula is twice the diameter of the right one, likely a result of infection. Original reports of this bone being broken were contradicted by the CT scans which showed no fracture. Multiple holes in the front of the skull were originally thought to be bite marks by some, but subsequent study found these to be areas of infection instead, possibly from an infestation of an ancestral form of Trichomonas gallinae, a protozoan parasite that infests birds.[17] Damage to the back end of the skull was interpreted early on as a fatal bite wound. Subsequent study by Field Museum paleontologists found no bite marks. The distortion and breakage seen in some of the bones in the back of the skull was likely caused by post-mortem trampling. Some of the tail vertebrae are fused in a pattern typical of arthritis due to injury. The animal is also believed to have suffered from gout.[18] In addition, there is extra bone in some of the tail vertebrae likely caused by the stresses brought on by Sue's great size. Sue did not die as a result of any of these injuries; her cause of death is not known.[11]

    Sue's tendon avulsion was likely caused by contact with struggling prey.[19]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sue_(dinosaur)
     
  6. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    It should be understood that they are discussing fossilized dinosaur bones, which are now rocks. The amazing dinosaur known as Sue is a fossil as mentioned in the first paragraph of your link.

    fos·sil noun
    The remains or impression of a prehistoric organism preserved in petrified form or as a mold or cast in rock.​


    The fossilization process works like this . . .

    http://www.fossilmuseum.net/fossilrecord/fossilization/fossilization.htm
     
  7. flabengal

    flabengal Founding Member

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    This doesn't seem like a very scientific attitude. What Berlinski argues should stand on the merits of the arguments made, not his place of employment, shouldn't they? Our beliefs should be based on evidence and facts, not social standing. Intellectual snobbery is hopefully not the basis for our modern beliefs, or is it?

    As far as better pay goes, has he had a change of heart at his new position? I would be surprised if that is true.
     
  8. flabengal

    flabengal Founding Member

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    at the 22:00 mark of the video he starts in about how life on earth, if one assumes it was designed, implicates the "Designer" as extremely destructive because 98% of all species are now extinct. A "pitiless, wasteful and capricious Designer" if I heard him correctly.

    What? That is the height of stupidity. The Supreme Being (Hitchens grants the existence of God, for the moment, in his example) didn't get it right! You've got to be kidding me. Who the hell is Hitchens to judge whether the act of creation was justified or not? How can he make this determination? He cannot possibly be privy to the information necessary to pass judgement on it.
     
  9. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Institutional prestige is not the same as social standing. Yes the science is based on the evidence and the conclusions drawn from it, the lowliest lab assistant at a junior college can discover something astonishing. But it doesn't happen very often.

    Not all universities and university professors are equal; they are not all peers. There is a top tier of research universities where the top dogs get paid well to deliver top research results. They have huge endowments, top facilities, and they pay research associates and graduate assistants well. Their top professors don't have to teach, can work on whatever they want, and get the biggest grants--Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Johns Hopkins, etc. They have an amazing record of distinguished research, nobel prizes, and important discoveries.

    Then you drop down to the better private universities and state research universities. Then down to the ordinary state and private research universities, then down to small universities that mostly teach and only do research as a sideline.

    Then there are the private research institutes which range from the best labs the world to totally fraudulent, garage-based on-line companies with very impressive sounding names and often with a social or political agenda rather than a scientific one. The nature of the institution, their record, and their reputation for good science is very important in gauging whose research has a proven track record rather than a long list of claims.

    So institutional prestige and credentials carry a lot of academic weight because they do the best work and have done so for the longest time with a distinguished track record, and their researchers have the highest standards to achieve and to maintain. These guys talk the talk and walk the walk. Fast movers go up the pyramid by doing more and better research.

    The deal with some private "think tanks" and such is that they often are funded by donors with a socio-political agenda and researchers are selected by some ideology rather than their scientific and academic achievements. Other are quite respectable, don't get me wrong. I'm explaining why the assessment of a researchers institution is important and is not "academic snobbery". Academic snobbery exist but it is something that is entirely different and is more of a social caste system unrelated to ones body of work but rather to his personal style, work ethic, perceptions of his esteem and worth, and of his rank and his parchment.

    Probably not. He has found a way to make a good living selling his notions when they were not getting much traction from the mainstream scientific experts. But sometimes you sell your objectivity when you are working for donors with an clear and persistent agenda.
     
  10. red55

    red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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    Can you not recognize sarcasm when you hear it? Both of these guys are kind of snarky and trying to get a reaction from the other for the camera.

    I thought perhaps you thought one of his facts were wrong.
     

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