Which is exactly the way we fought the British in many Revolutionary War engagements and the Native Americans in many, many more. It's the way our Special Ops are trained to fight today. It ain't about uniforms, ID, or guerrilla tactics. Distinguishing enemy combatants from spies and terrorists can be a fine line, but it ain't invisible. Hezbollah, Hamas, and Al Qaida attack civilians with mines, rockets, and suicide bombers. They kill our women and children and then hide behind the skirts of their own. They are cowards and beneath contempt, . . . and thus, they endanger their own civilians. If they fight like barbarians, then treat them like barbarians. The Taliban troops in 2003 and some of the many insurgent factions in Iraq mostly fought us straight up with standard military weapons and faced up to our soldiers, rather than murdering our civilian women and children. If they fight like men, then treat them like men. The failure of the Bush administration to perceive that not all of the muslim factions fighting us had the same agenda, the same chivalry, or the same leadership is among the worst of their blunders.
Red, mon ami, we have had many a disagreement here and this has to be the coup de gras. I can't speak for what is going on in OEF because I have not BEEN there. I can tell you that as far as what is going on in Iraq, it is unconventional and the uniform standards do and should apply. One of the long standing arguments against the geneva convention is that we are the only ones that follow it. While this is frustrating as all hell to us as servicemen and women we understand it's importance. The insurgent forces in Iraq use women, civilians, children, as shields, weapons, distractions, and accomplaces and whatever else they can think of to further their cause. They are criminals by any definition, not prisoners of war because prisoners of war are caputred enemy combatants. Now, as far as the "torture" goes. Do not think for one second that if achmed sings a pretty song we let him go and plan a major operation from what he has said. It is checked, double checked, back briefed, checked again, Someone calls Red for him to produce a link to the source of the information just to be sure. Then just maybe , just maybe the powers that be might trust it. One day you people with the bleeding hearts will realize just how angry, how hatefull, and how determined these nut-jobs are at killing us and everything we love and then you maybe, just maybe you will understand. That is all.
Please, allow me to clarify my position. It's a late night and I want to make sure I get this across in the right way. I am a whats commonly known as a "foot soldier" I'm boots on the ground. I don't know chit about the CIA, NSA, or any other 3 lettered combination labled agency. The thugs we (we being I and my unit) deal with or have dealt with are the lower echelon of thug that these turds have to provide. If we are lucky enough to get our hands on a HVT(high value target) we usually don't have them for long as they are whisked away by the suits. The problem is that these guys don't know anything other than what they were supposed to do/ carry out. They often aren't sure of why or who told them to do it they just know because. Torturing these idiots is a waste of time and effort because you just as well put out an APB on Barney the dinosaur. The flip side is the HVT's. If we happen to get our hands on one of these rascals then all bets are off. I say you do what you have to, how you have to and when you have to. They surely won't spare you (red, luvdem, john, MM) or any other of you who think we are being to rough on them, an ounce of slack. I'm asking you to step outside of your "personal" space and think of the country as a whole. It may not be you or your family but it doesn't matter. A bomb has no conscience and doesn't care who it kills. The difference between you and someone who feels or thinks the same way you do that lives in Michigan is a lot of miles. We are Americans and I really do enjoy doing the job that I do for each and every one of you. I don't want free sh*t, I don't want boxes of cookies, even though the most important thing of all is for you to say "Thanks" I dont' even want that. What I do want, is for you to freaking CARE!!! Not about me, I'm not that self centered. I want you to realize just how crazy these people are and to realize what lengths they will go to kill me, you, your neighbor, your mother, your kids... and stop kissing their a$$es. If whatever adminitration thinks we need to hook em up to get some info (especially being they are NOT combatants, but in fact insurgents) then quit pampering them and let the pro's do their job. now,.... that is all.
Thats a very subjective view, by all means I think waterboarding is torture, anytime you simulate an event of a death and force it upon a person. Thats pretty much torture, that person isnt thinking boy I am going to screwy when this is over with, think about my therapy bills. That person is thinking oh shyt, Im about to drown and die, because I wont give up information these people assume I have. Now I think you are really treading water here in your observation of psychological damage.
We live in a world of our own making. You cannot justify injustice by saying "Well, those are the times we live in." Torture is wrong. Pure and simple. The end does not justify the means. Never has. Never will. There are other methods of getting information out of someone without pulling ourselves down to their level. My opposition to torture is based on the fundamental dignity of human life. That dignity is the very reason we recognize human rights. The very function of human rights is to recognize the human dignity in every individual, even when they fail to live up to that dignity within themselves. We cannot answer for what others may do; only for what we do. We are all created in God's image, and anything we do that denies or detracts from that image and from the fundamental dignity that flows from that image is wrong. To deny human dignity in any human being only serves to lessen it in ourselves. I agree that these issues can be difficult. That is why it is important to have basic, fundamental principle to guide us. Such as the reality of human dignity and the importance of the means justifying the ends rather than vice versa. Without these principles we would be lost in a sea of uncertainty. They are the compass that gives us our moral bearings.
That was an absolutely weak reply to a statement I made that basically said, "I didn't know what was right". Please don't try to paint me into a corner I didn't put myself in. Certainly there are very few black and white situations as you would like to imply. As to your human dignity, I hope that keeps you warm while your enemies are refusing to give the consideration they receive and instead just choose to take your life, and the lives of your loved ones. The very debate over what torture even is today in the modern world is not clear. Neither are the status of various "fighters" found in Iraq. Lot's of people here are willing to scream freedom and human rights but easily forget how we were able to establish both, and it wasn't pacifism. I didn't say I condone torture, I said the issues are sufficiently muddled and I see plenty of scenarios that would cause most anyone on this forum to change their minds in the opposite direction. If you feel completely committed to one side of the debate, than I'm happy for you.
On the contrary. It is most definitely about the rules of war. The Geneva definition of enemy combatant is clear and there to provide both sides with a code of conduct that will benefit them should they choose to fight according to the code. If they choose not to, then they accept the risk. There was no formal Geneva code in 1770s and 80s. The Brits wore bright red unis and marched in lines. We didn't. Mostly because we couldn't (too poor, too undisciplined) but also because we needed different tactics. Insurgents, terrorists, whatever operate outside of the protection of the Geneva ROE. Just like the French resistance. No trial, no protection - you're a freelance agent without government support, and therefore without rights. You fight at your own risk and should be given no quarter if you lose. That's not opinion, Red. That's been international law for a long time now. But this thread is really about torture. And I don't under most circumstances condone ACTUAL torture (vice mamby-pamby, you mean drink the HOUSE red? "torture").
Are you now suggesting that the only people who are entitled to an opinion on torture are those that have BEEN to Iraq? Not a chance, amigo. I appreciate very much your first-hand viewpoint on Iraq, but it doesn't trump other opinions on the treatment of prisoners. This is not true. There are nearly 200 countries that have ratified the Geneva Convention and most have followed these protocols. Terrorists, insurgents, suicide bombers, and other guerrilla groups are not countries. I know what you are trying to say, but there are accepted rules of war and we have agreed to them. We don't just drop them because some enemy doesn't abide. There will be other enemies. Did you read my post carefully? Of course many of the insurgents are criminals and practice unlawful actions. My point was only that the ones who are just fighting our military forces and not attacking our women and children shouldn't be lumped with the terrorists who do. The murderous terrorists deserve far worse treatment than local guerillas fighting foreign occupiers. Oh, cry me a river. Look, it ain't a "bleeding heart" that is talking here. Kill the raghead bastards! It doesn't bother me a fuggin' bit. They attack you, then kill them! Go after them where they live and if there are civilian collateral casualties, then tuff chit. Thats what they get for hiding behind women's skirts. If you have to put a gun to an insurgents head to make him tell you where the mines are buried, then fine. If the CIA has to covertly waterboard a terrorist to get vital intelligence, so be it. It's war, we must always be violent, ruthless, and dangerous in battle. All I'm saying is that once we have a prisoner in an American prison, then we behave like Americans, not the Viet Cong, or the SS, or friggin' Al Qaida! We are head and shoulders above that kind of scum and we need to stay that way. It's what we are all about.
now are we mixing war tactics and pow etiqutte, because I am going to have to agree with Red. He has clearly made a difference b/t the two in this part of his post.
