http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20040604194804799 Its too bad that the Dems couldn't find a better candidate than Kerry. If you check out this website, it shows pictures and descriptions of Kerry and Jane Fonda being greeted by the enemy and taking pictures with them. This is in a museum in Vietnam where without the aid of John Kerry and Jane Fonda the Vietnamese would have lost the war. Dems: I challenge you to prove that this is all made up materials. :dis: good luck defending this one! Might as well go ahead and elect Jane Fonda as VP while we're at it! :thumb:
"A US delegation headed by US Deputy Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Hershel Gober, was in Vietnam in 1993 on a mission sent by President Clinton, to deliver to the Vietnamese microfilm of some 3 million captured Vietnam War documents that pertained to finding American POWs and MIAs. President Clinton mentioned John Kerry and noted that "Members of Congress and representatives of veterans groups have traveled to Vietnam to press for the goal" of resolving the fate of American service personnel who did not return from Vietnam. In a speech given on the Senate Floor Senator Kerry discussed in detail a meeting he had with Do Muoi in Vietnam to discuss the fate of American POWs and MIAs. In the course of pursuing the POW and MIA issue, it is reasonable that Senator Kerry would seek to meet with the communist leaders of Vietnam." I fail to see the problem here, Sourdough. 1. Vietnam was NOT our enemy in 1993. 2. What the hell is wrong with a US Senator trying to get information on POW/MIAs? What do you have against our government getting POW/MIA information for American families? 3. Fonda was in Vietnam during the war, Kerry was in Vietnam 21 years after the war as a representative of the US government. No connection. Period. 4. Anybody who thinks we lost the Vietnam War because of Jane Fonda has no understanding of the Vietnam War. 5. Anybody who thinks that a decorated veteran of the Vietnam War caused us to lose the war because he came home and told us that the war was a mistake is just foolish. A few years later the whole damned country knew the war was a mistake and we quit it. Over 20,000 dead soldiers later. Good luck defending the Vietnam War. It was a blunder from beginning to end and 58,000 men in my generation are dead from it and it gained the US nothing! We lost the Vietnam War because of Lyndon Johnston and Richard Nixon.
I will defend this war, it was no different than any other war except we had a president that was assasinated during this one which changed the whole outcome of history. Someone please tell me if i'm wrong here but I doubt it, I know a thing or two about this. There was nothing wrong with this war, JF Kennedy got us involved with this. It was to stop the aggression of communism just like the Korean war. The problem came when Kennedy was assasinated and LBJ took over and obviously had no clue what he was doing. He ran a "political" war that didn't do anything but help contribute to the enemy winning the war while helping us lose the war. My problem with John Kerry is very simple, If you thought he had nothing to do with us losing the war you are in denial. You need to read about the Tet Offensive and you didn't read the article here where it talks about the Vietmanese held out because of people like John Kerry and Jane Fonda along with the protests at home. Don't believe me? Go read the generals diaries and those from the enemy. I've read it first hand, they would've given up the fight and the war if it wasn't for John Kerry and Jane Fonda, the news media also played a vital role in the betrayal of our country. Go read the Tet Offensive article in the Washington Times also. BTW, You don't see anything wrong with the Vietmanese thinking Kerry is a war hero for them? :shock:
I like you, Sourdough, and I admire the passion you have in your illusions. You are exercising your contitutional right to speak out. But I feel very strongly about these issues, too. (1) Vietnam was a clusterf**k from beginning to end. We won every battle in that war and never actually lost it. But, In time we just had to quit. It was gaining us nothing, getting us nowhere, and the political leadership just never got it. It took the will of the people, after eight long years, to force the government to deal with it. It was an unwinnable war, as guerrilla wars often are. And the opposition to Vietnam was much broader than the sterotyped college peace protesters of the movies. Joe and Sue Average were opposed to this war. By 1968 everybody knew the war was a disaster and we had to get out of it. Yet it went on four more years, while politicians defended their failed policies. Eventually both Nixon and McNamara admitted their mistakes. Lyndon Johnson never did, although the dropping of his reelection bid in 1968 may have been accepting tacit responsibility. (2) It is every Americans right and duty to participate in the democratic process which includes the freedom to stand up and say your mind. Kerry was a decorated Vietnam War veteran who had earned the right to speak. He exercised freedom of speech and lawfully testified before Congress, he exercised freedom of the press and shared his first-hand experience in articles. He never once broke the law in this constitutionally-encouraged citizens activity. Jane Fonda was a hollywood bimbo who went way over the line. She visited North Vietnam during wartime, met with enemy war leaders, and actively collaborated with their propaganda efforts. She actually posed smiling on the anti-aircraft guns that were used to shoot at American planes. She was treasonous in every sense of the word and it is remarkable that she didn't serve time. No comparison.
We both will disagree then Red I respect your opinions but still say the Vietnam war was started for the same reasons the Korean and any other war was begun to fight the spread of communism. Therefore it was justified but we didn't have a leader in all those years that could win the war. Just that simple. I hope whether Kerry gets elected or not that we can all put Vietnam aside for good. We need to let this die forever but at the same time always remember the lessons we learned so that history never repeats itself again. I'm really angry that our government didn't do everything they could've to win this war. I didn't know a registered guest could give you neg or pos rep points. I thought that only contributors could do this. JVincent25 gave me negative rep points for this thread, the only one. I don't know what his problem is but I hope he at least looks at this link and some of these quotes. War protestors and the news media totally has pissed me off from what I've read around such as the following article about Vietnam. If we would've had better leadership at the time this wouldn't have happened. I might've went a little too far with saying we might as well elect Jane Fonda but oh well now you know how I feel about the protestors from the quote and article below. http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20040415-090923-9426r.htm Arnaud de Borchgrave is editor at large for The Washington Times and United Press International. He covered Tet as Newsweek's chief foreign correspondent and had seven tours in Vietnam between 1951 under the French and 1972, during the U.S. involvement. "With the Viet Cong wiped out in the Tet offensive, North Vietnamese regulars moved south down the Ho Chi Minh trails through Laos and Cambodia to continue the war. Even Giap admitted in his memoirs that news media reporting of the war and the antiwar demonstrations that ensued in America surprised him. Instead of negotiating what he called a conditional surrender, Giap said they would now go the limit because America's resolve was weakening and the possibility of complete victory was within Hanoi's grasp." I do hope Bush is elected but if Kerry does some how win my life will go on! :thumb:
Let me say 1 other thing. Just to make myself clear on this subject. I don't like anyone who had anything to do with this subject of Vietnam and hope I never have to hear another politician or anyone else talk about this til the day I die. Anyone such as LBJ, he was the one of the worst presidents ever IMHO. Robert Mc Namara or anyone else involved with us not winning this war government wise. I don't like the protestors such as John Kerry and Jane Fonda either. I feel badly for the soldiers and everyone else that fought in this war. One of my uncles brothers name is listed on the wall in DC,(uncle by marriage). If Kerry wins or loses, No more Vietnam please. I couldn't stand it if he loses and runs again and the same old Vietnam stuff comes up. I think I would ignore the whole election then.
I'm with you on that. I didn't bring Vietnam up, I was just responding to your post. A few thoughts, then I'll drop it: I'm not sure why anybody can support what happened in Vietnam, but they damn sure do not have a monopoly on patriotism or sympathy for the veterans. I grew up in a military family in a base town all through that war and I saw them go off and I saw them come back and I learned. I have a friend and mentor on the wall, too. And a cousin with two lost limbs, permanently disabled at age 19. And for what? I was all for the war at first, like everybody else. I got my first social studies question about Vietnam in the 4th grade. When I was a senior the war was still going on but my opinions had evolved completely. It is important for a government to recogize and accept mistakes quickly and act to reverse them. To blindly ride the hellbound train in pursuit of failed policies only compounds a disaster. The people must make their feelings known at such times, as is their constitutional right. Calling for an end to that war was not about helping Vietnam, it was about helping the United States. A person is influenced, not only by his experiences, but by his studies. It is a subject I have been long interested in and there are a number of books and documentary films out there that greatly help in its understanding. I highly recommend a few if you have the time and inclination some day. There are two highly acclaimed books on the Vietnam War that are essential for any amateur historian. The Vietnam War: A History by Stanley Karnow and About Face by Col. David Hackworth. I know you are a videophile. Vietnam: The 10,000 Day War narrated by Richard Basehart and Vietnam a CBS mini-series by Waiter Cronkite are the best documentary films out there.
Also, I wouldn't let bad rep like that bother you. I really don't put much store in rep because of the nature of it. I only give bad rep to people who flame and cast insults and generally degrade discussions. But I get bad rep from time to time from people who just don't like my politics. Don't let it upset you, it just means they are reading and you got to them. Sore spot. Rep really only helps newbies quickly assess who is being listened to and who is completely full of chit on the board. Old-timers mostly judge people based on their thousands of posts. And some of them have memories like elephants. I know for a fact that you are one of the most likeable folks on the board.
I'm a contributor, been one for like a month now. I don't want to twist around the whole thread explaining to you why I gave you a negative rep point, but red has already outlined pretty much them all. McNamara and the rest of the administration realized the war was futile in '67, yet dragged on until '73, killing thousands of Americans who shouldn't of even been there. The administration wouldn't even defend the war, yet you will. And then you brought up the point that we would've won the war had it not been for Kerry and Fonda. If you need to go around asking for explanations whenever someone gives you a negative rep point then I think you're a little too concerned with the whole reputation feature.
I really don't care that you gave me a negative rep, I got more than enough to make up for one here or there. You seem to know so much about Vietnam yet you missed what was in the memoirs of General Giap. I will quote it here for you in case you missed it. "Even Giap admitted in his memoirs that news media reporting of the war and the antiwar demonstrations that ensued in America surprised him. Instead of negotiating what he called a conditional surrender, Giap said they would now go the limit because America's resolve was weakening and the possibility of complete victory was within Hanoi's grasp." http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20040415-090923-9426r.htm The news media and the protestors saw to it that we didn't win this war along with the incompetents of the government. In honesty I think you are right but I am too. Maybe we can all learn something from one another. So you see between the media, antiwar demonstrators which John Kerry and Jane Fonda were well known whether you want to admit that or not. This is why I'm against the news media being "free" to transmit whatever they want to during a time of war. Anything to do with the war should be "off limits" for example the Abu-Grab prison pictures and story when its under investigation. Our own worst enemy is our news media. Another thing I don't like is this stupid color code system for the terrorist threat level. Our own news media lets us along with the countries of our enemies know when our threat level is up or down. So I'm for a more censored news media in times of war, at least this stuff could be more censored when its broadcasted in another country?
