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Historical evidence of Pontius Pilate and Jesus...

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by flabengal, Feb 27, 2005.

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flabengal Founding Member

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I'm starting a new thread under the advisement of another poster. This thread is a result of discussions on a previous thread. The point is only that Pontius Pilate and Jesus are historicals figure that actually existed and died. Furthermore, if someone is determined to deny that there is reasonable evidence to support the existence of Jesus then you are really forced to dismiss the majority of history and human experience because history and people are so utterly unreliable. Except those events that you personally experience. Of course, I have come to realize that personal experience can be dismissed as hallucination, so that won't convince the skeptics either.

Tacitus
Cornelius Tacitus, born circa 52-55 C.E., became a senator in the Roman government under Emperor Vespasian. He was eventually promoted to governor of Asia. Writing in the year 116 C.E. in his Annals, he writes of the burning of Rome in 64 C.E. and how Caesar Nero had tried to stop the rumor that he (Nero) was behind the destruction.
“Therefore, to scotch the rumor (that Nero had burned Rome) Nero substituted as culprits, and punished with the utmost refinements of cruelty, a class of men, loathed for their vices, whom the crowd styled Christians. Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus, and the pernicious superstition was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judea, the home of the disease, but in the capital itself, where all things horrible or shameful in the world collect and find a vogue…..They [the Christians] were covered with wild beasts’ skins and torn to death by dogs; or they were fastened on crosses, and, when daylight failed were burned to serve as lamps by night. Nero had offered his Gardens for the spectacle, and gave an exhibition in his Circus, mixing with the crowd in the habit of a charioteer, or mounted on his car. Hence, in spite of a guilt which had earned the most exemplary punishment, there arose a sentiment of pity, due to the impression that they were being sacrificed not for the welfare of the state but to the ferocity of a single man.”

This amazing document verifies that Jesus, or Christus, was a true historical figure, that he lived and was killed during the reign of Caesar Tiberius, that he was sentenced under Pontius Pilate and that by about 64 C.E., Christianity had spread rapidly throughout the Roman empire. Tacitus verifies that Christians were viciously tortured by Nero only thirty-two years after the death of Jesus of Nazareth. The historical validity of this letter by Tacitus is doubted by very few scholars. According to some scholars, Tacitus is:
“Universally considered the most reliable of historians, a man in whom sensibility and imagination, though lively, could never spoil a critical sense rare in his time and a great honesty in the examination of the documents.”
In the Babylonian Talmud, which was compiled between the years 200-500 C.E., in Sanhedrin 43a, there is a fascinating reference to Jesus of Nazareth:
“It has been taught: On the Eve of the Passover, they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out in front of him, for forty days saying: ‘he is going to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray.’ Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.’ But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the Eve of the Passover.”
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or this:

Jewish Historian Josephus
Josephus was a Jewish historian who lived circa 37-100 AD. His Hebrew name was Joseph ben Mattathias, and he received an excellent education in Jerusalem. After leading a failed revolt of the Jewish forces against Rome, Josephus was captured and became a Roman citizen. He served as pensioner of several Flavian emperors and is most widely known by the name he then acquired, Flavius Josephus.

Around 93 AD., Josephus published Jewish Antiquities, a history of the Jews in twenty books. Though not a prominent subject of his writing, John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth, and Jesus' brother James are all mentioned in Jewish Antiquities. This represents the earliest historical record of Jesus from someone who was a professional historian.
“So he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned..."

E.P. Sanders, "The Historical Figure of Jesus", notes:
"The sources for Jesus are better than those that deal with Alexander [the Great]. The original biographies of Alexander have all been lost, and they are known only because they were used by later - much later - writers. The primary sources for Jesus were written nearer his own lifetime..." (p. 3).
"The Christian scribes probably only rewrote the text [Testimonium Flavianum]. It is highly likely that Josephus included Jesus in his account of the period.Josephus discussed John the Baptist and other prophetic figures, such as Theudas and the Egyptian. Further, the passage on Jesus is not adjacent to Josephus' account of John the Baptist, which is probably where a Christian scribe would have put it had he invented the whole paragraph. Thus, the author of the only surviving history of Palestinian Judaism in the first century thought that Jesus was important enough to merit a paragraph, no more, no less." (p. 50).

"Finally, there is the independent attestation of Josephus in the authentic core of his "Testimonium Flavianum"... there is a careful development of thought in this presentation. Josephus first gives Jesus the generic title of 'wise man' (sophos aner). Then he unpacks that title by enumerating what would be its major components in the eyes of a Greco-Roman audience: (1) Jesus worked 'startling deeds' (paradoxia), a word Josephus also uses of the miracles worked by the prophet Elisha (Ant. 9.7.6 #182). (2) Jesus taught people who were searching for the truth. (3) Jesus' miraculous deeds and powerful teaching attracted a large following of both Jews and Gentiles. In short, Jesus was a charismatic leader whose special powers of miracle-working and teaching were acknowledged and ratified by his followers.... this bundle of assertions gives exactly the same configuration of Jesus' ministry as do the Gospels." (p. 621f).
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There is tons more, just try and "google" the subject. I'm not going to put any more material on this post though. I think it dampens people enthusiasm for reading the entire post.

flabengal, Feb 27, 2005

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flabengal Founding Member

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Red, here's another one:

there is text with it also but I can't seem to make the link work. It under "bible-history.com/empires/pilate.html"

I found it by googling "historical evidence of pontius pilate"

By the way, I hate to be so argumentative but where are all the naysayers? How about a reply, tell me I'm an idiot if you want but say something.....

flabengal, Feb 28, 2005

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LSUDeek All That She Wants...

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The naysayers are unable to debate historical fact, so they'll just stay out of the discussion.

LSUDeek, Feb 28, 2005

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Frogleg Registered Best

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I must say, I find all this interesting reading, just don't have much to offer here. I never thought Jesus's life was ever questioned much, just the son of god part. Assumed this was historical fact as was Alexander, Julius Caesar. Never thought much about historical documentation.
A lot of information is passed by word of mouth, generation to generation, grandfathers to grandsons, and on. That would amount to roughly 40 tellings to get back to time of Christ. At one point it is written, but sometimes never. So its validity is proportional to how close it was written to the original act? I put stock in word of mouth family tellings.

Frogleg, Feb 28, 2005

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red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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TigerRagAndrew said:

The naysayers are unable to debate historical fact, so they'll just stay out of the discussion.
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Wrong again. What a silly statement. There is about 5 pages of discussion already on the other thread, if you bother to check. And there will be more on this one from the "naysayers" and the "sayers". Plus, it is the "sayers" that have the fewest historical facts or scientific evidence, at least so far. Give us some time, will ya'? I go online for short periods of time, widely separated.

red55, Feb 28, 2005

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LSUDeek All That She Wants...

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red55 said:

Wrong again. What a silly statement. There is about 5 pages of discussion already on the other thread, if you bother to check. And there will be more on this one from the "naysayers" and the "sayers". Plus, it is the "sayers" that have the fewest historical facts or scientific evidence, at least so far. Give us some time, will ya'? I go online for short periods of time, widely separated.
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I already checked it.

Are you saying that you dismiss all of the evidence that was posted in this thread?

LSUDeek, Feb 28, 2005

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martin Banned Forever

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i dont dispute it. maybe jesus existed, mayb he didnt. i know jim jones existed and charlie manson and rael and the pope and that guy from waco, whats-his-name, they all existed. any old chump can convince people he is a wizard, no problem.

i also know that any story you are told that you didnt watch yourself is immediately embellished and any story that goes through more than zero people is untrustable. in fact right here i have squashed numerous urban legends that people believed for no more reason than they heard them.

i'm not saying their was no dude named jesus. maybe there was. i am saying jesus didnt have magical powers, nobody does. are you guys aware of that?

not only that, but the story makes zero sense. god killed his son to forgive me? what the hell is wrong with that dumbass god? what does killing his son have to do with anything? and why does he have to kill his son? he is omnipotent and can forgive us without giving up anything. besides, jesus just went and joined him in heaven, thats no sacrifice at all. if jesus wanted to he could just re-make himself in human form and walk around the earth all he wanted, killing him is not really possible. the whole thing is childish nonsense, belived by mindless idiots and cowards.

martin, Feb 28, 2005

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Frogleg Registered Best

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martin said:

the whole thing is childish nonsense, belived by mindless idiots and cowards.
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I sense emotion here. Why do you care so much what other people believe? Why does it bother you. Could it be because subconsiously you cannot possibly fathom why a rational person would believe in Jesus Christ, so you fear that you are missing some part of the equation. And this subconsious doubt is driving you to lash out at those you cannot understand.

Frogleg, Feb 28, 2005

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martin Banned Forever

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retarded people are retarded. my admitting they are retarded doesnt mean i hate them.

i do admit that i get very angry when i cannot buy beer on sundays, and it frustrates me when religious morality affects our laws, but otherwise i dont care. if you want to believe in peter pan, go for it. if it will make you feel better i will pretend i respect people's stupid beliefs.

martin, Feb 28, 2005

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Frogleg Registered Best

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Personally, I pretty much don't care what other people believe, and have my own unique belief of everything. I just find it interesting when one persons view affects another emotionally. It's a telling thing, that exposes something. I think it exposes doubt it one's own beliefs.

Frogleg, Feb 28, 2005

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