I know most everyone on here is a staunch republican and a die-hard Bush fan, so I'm interested in what YOU guys think about this. I'm NOT trying to start a political war here. I've voted for republicans before (Jindal, twice, and I almost cried when "that woman" won.) I dislike Bush (VERY much,) but I support him, as our president. I think the "memo" is very dissapointing to me, as a proud American citizen. It "proves" the president lied to me about Iraq. Big deal you say? Well think about all of the other things that he could have lied about, it makes you wonder. Was his "lying" to protect Americans? I don't think so, Bush wanted 110% to go to war (reason why I don't *like* him.) U.N. is the law, you follow it, American or not--we're not the only people to inhabit planet earth. Was Kerry a viable alternative? Not really, but I DO believe he was the lesser of two evils... at least his head was screwed on right. I have a problem when my president seems less intelligent than my high school drop-out "friends." Okay, okay, sorry to bash him, that's not my intentions... but seriously how do you guys feel about the memo? I find how the media seems to disregard this as disheartning, truly. It shows that America's press really isn't independent... This whole thing worries me. In this day and age we need a smart thinking president that is WILLING TO WORK with other nations in order to eradicate terrorism--war is EXACTLY what they want. I can't wait for the next election, and I hope we have better options.. PS - I'm not trying to put anyone down or make anyone angry. Those are my honest-to-God feelings, and I know everyone has their own reasons for their political favoritisms, so please don't try to tell me how wrong I am for not liking Bush. It won't work. Also, please try to refrain from bashing me for expressing my feelings about Bush. I know A LOT of you LOVE and ADORE the ground he walks on...he make's me shudder, but seriously, how do you guys feel about the DSM? In case any of you don't know what it is, it is supposedly "proof" that Bush was going to go to war regardless of what U.N. said. I know that we ALL knew that, but it's the things he said, and how he said it. You can read the memo here: http://www.downingstreetmemo.com PSS - I look past parties when voting... call me a liberal fag, and you'd be wrong... I consider myself a conservative democrat or a liberal republican...better yet, I transcend parties...
I just think it is sad that you put so much faith in th U.N. As for the memo's, who says they are real? How do they imply that Bush lied about anything? http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44876
1. you cannot really tell a person what his motivations are and prove it. 2. the language in the memo is vague, and the opinion of some british dude. "Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD" fine by me, i also wanted saddam removed, and those reasons are great, in addition to others. these reasons are the opinion of a british guy who i have never heard of, who is interpreting what is happening, he isnt even quoting bush. "But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." what does that mean "fixed"? arent "intelligence and facts" supposed to be used to make policy? if we use the word "fixed" does that make the intelligence and facts untrue? what better justification could we possibly have than intelligence and facts? if some of the intelligence is wrong, so be it. i see nothing dishonest about anything. this memo only proves that a british guy has an opinion about what is happening. he doesnt even explicitly claim any false intelligence is being used. he isnt even quoting bush! of course bush assembled intelligence and used it to justify the war, i dont see the problem there. huh? the UN isnt god. you dont have to do what they say. especially if you are the US. would you think we should obey the UN even if they are dead wrong? if the UN said we are not to go after bin laden, would you agree because it is sacred UN law? you dont understand the idea of law. if you can get away with not abiding by it, fine. law isnt god, its just some dudes deciding what they want you to do. if you dont need em, good for you. the united states is far more powerful than the UN. i could just as easily claim they should do what we say.
i realize that is a very conservative website that should not be trusted. but still that is a good article. the memo isnt even original? the reporter retyped the memo? i didnt know that. that is crazy. cant he just use a damn marker and black out the sources? or cut them out with an exacto knife if he is really scared? it seems very possible the reporter sort of interpreted something he heard or read. who cares anyways, it isnt very damning.
What I think is it would be great to see origional documents for a change instead of a bunch of fake documents that a news story is made out of. Aren't these the same memos John Kerry was going to push an impeachment of George Bush over? I think that says it all really, I support George W and what he has done but I am also not all that pleased with him. We haven't gone far enough to protect our country, borders, We've also gone to far to target Americans at airports and then their is a patriot act. Created department of Homeland Security, what good is all this with borders wide open? Btw, I'm tired of the news media running off with wild stories to create their own news when they don't have any evidence to back it up! The people on the left scare me, they want the USA to be ruled by the UN. I don't trust the UN for ANY reason anymore, doesn't seem like they can do anything right.
Bush lied to go to war with Iraq? Well, I say, he was given information that was said to be credible, he acted on it, then it turned out to be wrong. OK. But consider this: a horrible dictator and his oppresive government was taken down and he was forced to run; his murderous sons were caught and killed; the dictator himself was found hiding like a rat in a hole and now faces trial and death for his war crimes; Iraqis are enjoying liberties today that they couldn't have dreamed of under Saddam; a vital infrastructure is currently being built to set Iraq up for success in the future - an infrastructure that was not there in the past; regardless of what you think, the money from Iraq's oil is going to the people, where it belongs; Iraq enjoyed its first FREE elections in decades; women were given the opportunity to vote for the first time ever; need I go on? Sure, go ahead and cry about insurgents and military casualties. There is always going to be an insurgency when you topple a government. Are we not fighting an insurgency in Afghanistan? The only difference is, those insurgents are fighting the military, not blowing up helpless and innocent civilians. Yes, it is horrible that we've had many casualties. BUT, that is a fact of war. They were killed in action, DEFENDING FREEDOM. Remember, the job of our military is not just to protect our nation, but protect the very freedom that we enjoy. If that means we have to protect it for people who don't have the resources to stand up for themselves against tyranny, than so be it. It is never good when our troops are killed. But I remind you that the total KIAs in Iraq pails in comparison to a single battle in WWII. What were we doing then? Fighting tyranny. In a war where you have troops on the ground, there are going to be casualties. It is the nature of war. I've said this time and time again, just remember that these men and women who are giving their lives VOLUNTEERED for military service, many during this time of war in Iraq, knowing full well that if they were called over to Iraq, they may not make it home alive. Iraq's problems post-Saddam were not going to be solved in a year. Remember, Rome wasn't built in a year. It is going to take time and effort and leaving them for dead right now would most certainly contradict all that we've done. THAT would make the sacrifices made by our men and women in uniform a wasted effort. We will prevail and we will succeed. If not for the Iraqi people, then for those who have so valiantly given their lives so another culture could enjoy the very same freedoms we enjoy. Screw the UN.
The U.N. is NOT "the law". Our participation in it is strictly voluntary, and the minute we pull out of it, it will collapse like the house of cards it is.
right. people don't seem to understand how UN "law" works. the UN is like the boy scouts. if you join it and you like the rules, thats fine, but if you think they suck you can ignore their rules. if you think UN law is to be obeyed by everyone, then you do not understand international politics well enough to comment. the media wants a story, badly. if there was one here, they would be on it. there is no media conspiracy. you are not seeing a story that the media has missed. you are not finding truth in news that the media is ignoring.
Either Bush hoodwinked us or Bush's people hoodwinked him. Either way we deserve a more competent president. These were not the reasons we were told for going to war. This post-invasion spin only emphasizes that the stated reasons for going to war were untrue. There are worse dictators in the world, what about them? The enemy is Al Qaida and Bush seems to have forgotton that in his rush to punish Saddam. And this rash notion began before 9/11, it is becoming increasingly clear from the report of the 9/11 commission, Richard Clark's testimony, and now the Downing Street memo. It is now impossible for this lame-duck president to wage another war . . . he is no longer trusted. Why do you love these ragheads so much? They hate us, don't want us there, and are killing our soldiers. If they yearned for freedom so much, why didn't they wage this insurgency against Saddam? Answer me that! They ransacked their own country and then blamed us. Now they consume billions that we don't have (we are borrowing it from China) and they show no gratitude. They kill Americans every day because we are delivering easy targets to them. I say, fugg 'em! Saddam is captured and the WMD were a myth. What the hell are we still hanging around for? As soon as we leave, be it next year or 25 years, they will allow another stongman to take over. There isn't a democracy anywhere in the Arab world, including our "allies". Every one is ruled by a stongman. Democracy is probably incompatible with Islam. We are wasting out treasure and our military effectiveness by squandering them in a sandbox that we don't even want. Not when you topple a government, but when you stick around and try to occupy the place. These people hated Saddam and they hate each other, but they are banding together to oppose us because they are very nationalistic. Let them have the friggin' place! We don't need it and never wanted it. We've already gained everything that we ostensibly went to war for. Saddam is gone and the WMDs didn't exist. It ain't our job to teach these bastards democracy if they won't cooperate. Japan and Germany were occupied by us after military conquests. But these people cooperated with us in the rebuilding of their countries in stead of rebelling and now they are firm allies. The Iraqis don't deserve our help if they won't cooperate. Let them stew in their own islamic juices. We won the war in 21 days and sacked their capital. Americans do brilliantly in short wars. We do lousy in long ones. This president doesn't understand basic geopolitics and can't manage his own military effectively. Iraq is a clusterfugg and everyone can see it. Bush ignored all of the hard-earned lessons of Vietnam. Wait a minute, did Bush say anything about invading and occupying Iraq for years in order to rid the earth of a tyrant? I don't remember that. That is post-invasion spin to distract from his blunders. The world is full of tyrants. Are we going to rid the world of tyranny now? There ain't enough money and military power in the world to do that. Our real enemy, Al Qaida and their radical islamic kin, is still out there blowing up things while we dick around in Iraq. What constitutes success, exactly? What benchmarks do you set for us to get the hell about the rest of our business? If you are waiting for some kind of Jeffersonian democracy to break out, we will be there forever. Democracy has to be desired by the people and they have to have the courage to take it for themselves. 100,000 Bathists couldn't have kept 26 million Iraqis under their thumb without the silent acquiesence of the Iraqi population. They haven't earned democracy. They haven't yet deserved democracy. And moreover, it is impossible for us to go there and make democracy happen for them. It defies all logic and history.
