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David Kay, Bush's Boy, takes shot at Bush

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by CottonBowl'66, Jan 24, 2004.

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CottonBowl'66 Founding Member

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http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/23/sprj.nirq.duelfer/index.html

Read the entire article. At the end David Kay, Bush's hand picked boy to search for WMD in Iraq, says that he does not think the WMD ever existed.

In the State of the Union Address Bush had downgraded his claims of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons, to "weapons of mass destruction activities" or some such garbage.

As one columnist said this week, next Bush will be claiming he invaded because nuclear physics was being taught in Iraqi universities.

$87 billion of YOUR MONEY is going to Iraq this year and every year for the forseeable future to keep a lid on it. Think of what we could do with that money if it was spent in America.

The sanctions had worked; Saddam was disarmed, and was no threat to anyone. There is nothing to indicate that he was allied with Bin Laden, and Bush himself said nothing indicates that Saddam was in on 911.

It was an unnecessary war, and a waste of good old American taxdollars. But at least it is going to a good cause--it is keeping Halliburton solvent.

CottonBowl'66, Jan 24, 2004

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JSracing Founding Member

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The long term benifits from having a democratic state in the middle east cannot be measured, there is more to this than just money. It's incredible how cynical you are. Were you this cynical about Clinton when he invaded Cosovo? I doubt it.

Facts Rarely Reported About Progress in Iraq
From the Commanding Officer at MWSS-171 to his Marines.
Marines and Sailors,

As we approach the end of the year I think it is important to share a few thoughts about what you've accomplished, directly in some cases, and indirectly in many others. I am speaking about what the Bush Administration and each of you has contributed by wearing the uniform, because the fact that you wear the uniform contributes 100% to the capability of the nation to send a few onto the field to execute national policy. As you read about these achievements you are a part of I would call your attention to two things:

This is good news that hasn't been "judged" fit to print or report on TV.

It is much easier to point out the errors a man makes when he makes the tough decisions, rarely is the positive as aggressively pursued.
Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1...

The first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has graduated and is on active duty.

Over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow citizens.

Nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

The Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

On Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518 megawatts-exceeding the prewar average.

All 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and secondary schools.

By October 1, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over 1,500 schools - 500 more than scheduled.

Teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.

All 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open.

Doctors salaries are at least eight times what they were under Saddam.

Pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons.

The Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccinations to Iraq's children.

A Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq's 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and women.

We have restored over three-quarters of prewar telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable water production.

There are 4,900 full-service telephone connections. We expect 50,000 by year-end.

The wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major cities and towns.

95 percent of all prewar bank customers have service and first-time customers are opening accounts daily.

Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses.

The central bank is fully independent.

Iraq has one of the worlds most growth-oriented investment and banking laws.

Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.

Satellite TV dishes are legal.

Foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for "minders" and other government spies.

There IS no Ministry of Information.

There are more than 170 newspapers.

You can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.

Foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.

A nation that had not one single element - legislative, judicial or executive - of a representative government, now does.

In Baghdad alone residents have selected 88 advisory councils. Baghdad's first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the city council elected its new chairman.

Today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business, school and professional organizations are electing their leaders all over the country.

25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in Iraq's history, run the day-to-day business of government.

The Iraqi government regularly participates in international events. Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs today announced that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.

Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.

For the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.

The Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small, as part of a strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq.

Uday and Qusay are dead - and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to the zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or murdering critics.

Children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with the government.

Political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.

Millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.

Saudis will hold municipal elections.

Qataris reforming education to give more choices to parents.

Jordanis accelerating market economic reforms.

The Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian -- a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and for peace.

Saddam is gone.

Iraq is free.

President Bush has not faltered or failed.

JSracing, Jan 24, 2004

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dallastigers Founding Member

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He actually ends it with:

Despite arduous working conditions and an inhospitable and often threatening environment, the ISG ... has performed its important mission with great skill and the utmost integrity," Kay said in a written statement. "While there are many unresolved issues, I am confident that the ISG will do everything possible to answer remaining questions about the former Iraqi regime's WMD efforts."
Click to expand...

Also as far as your stockpile quote is there a difference between stockpiling WMDs and maintaining or looking into the ability to produce them (covertly in some cases)? Particularly when you are talking about someone who has used chemical weapons in the past.

Kay just mentions no stockpiles here.

But though Kay has said new information has been uncovered about Iraq's programs -- particularly its efforts to build missiles -- he has since concluded there are no weapons stockpiles to be found.

"I don't think they existed," Kay told Reuters on Friday. "What everyone was talking about is stockpiles produced after the end of the [1991] gulf war, and I don't think there was a large-scale production program in the '90s."
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Cottonbowel do not just cherry pick the one sentence from Kay that you like without looking into all of them. I am glad you finally learned how to post a link. Maybe with time you will learn to post links that actually back up your claims.

Kay in OCT 2003 about other non-stockpile issues.

Why are we having such difficulty in finding weapons or in reaching a confident conclusion that they do not exist or that they once existed but have been removed? Our search efforts are being hindered by six principal factors:

1. From birth, all of Iraq's WMD activities were highly compartmentalized within a regime that ruled and kept its secrets through fear and terror and with deception and denial built into each program;

2. Deliberate dispersal and destruction of material and documentation related to weapons programs began pre-conflict and ran trans-to-post conflict;

3. Post-OIF looting destroyed or dispersed important and easily collectable material and forensic evidence concerning Iraq's WMD program. As the report covers in detail, significant elements of this looting were carried out in a systematic and deliberate manner, with the clear aim of concealing pre-OIF activities of Saddam's regime;

4. Some WMD personnel crossed borders in the pre/trans conflict period and may have taken evidence and even weapons-related materials with them;

5. Any actual WMD weapons or material is likely to be small in relation to the total conventional armaments footprint and difficult to near impossible to identify with normal search procedures. It is important to keep in mind that even the bulkiest materials we are searching for, in the quantities we would expect to find, can be concealed in spaces not much larger than a two car garage;

6. The environment in Iraq remains far from permissive for our activities, with many Iraqis that we talk to reporting threats and overt acts of intimidation and our own personnel being the subject of threats and attacks. In September alone we have had three attacks on ISG facilities or teams: The ISG base in Irbil was bombed and four staff injured, two very seriously; a two person team had their vehicle blocked by gunmen and only escaped by firing back through their own windshield; and on Wednesday, 24 September, the ISG Headquarters in Baghdad again was subject to mortar attack.

What have we found and what have we not found in the first 3 months of our work?

We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002. The discovery of these deliberate concealment efforts have come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that ISG has discovered that should have been declared to the UN. Let me just give you a few examples of these concealment efforts, some of which I will elaborate on later:

· A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.

· A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.

· Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons.

· New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.

· Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).

· A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.

· Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the UN.

· Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km -- well beyond the 150 km range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.

· Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment.

In addition to the discovery of extensive concealment efforts, we have been faced with a systematic sanitization of documentary and computer evidence in a wide range of offices, laboratories, and companies suspected of WMD work. The pattern of these efforts to erase evidence -- hard drives destroyed, specific files burned, equipment cleaned of all traces of use -- are ones of deliberate, rather than random, acts.

For example,

· On 10 July 2003 an ISG team exploited the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC) Headquarters in Baghdad. The basement of the main building contained an archive of documents situated on well-organized rows of metal shelving. The basement suffered no fire damage despite the total destruction of the upper floors from coalition air strikes. Upon arrival the exploitation team encountered small piles of ash where individual documents or binders of documents were intentionally destroyed. Computer hard drives had been deliberately destroyed. Computers would have had financial value to a random looter; their destruction, rather than removal for resale or reuse, indicates a targeted effort to prevent Coalition forces from gaining access to their contents.

· All IIS laboratories visited by IIS exploitation teams have been clearly sanitized, including removal of much equipment, shredding and burning of documents, and even the removal of nameplates from office doors.

· Although much of the deliberate destruction and sanitization of documents and records probably occurred during the height of OIF combat operations, indications of significant continuing destruction efforts have been found after the end of major combat operations, including entry in May 2003 of the locked gated vaults of the Ba'ath party intelligence building in Baghdad and highly selective destruction of computer hard drives and data storage equipment along with the burning of a small number of specific binders that appear to have contained financial and intelligence records, and in July 2003 a site exploitation team at the Abu Ghurayb Prison found one pile of the smoldering ashes from documents that was still warm to the touch.

I would now like to review our efforts in each of the major lines of enquiry that ISG has pursued during this initial phase of its work.

With regard to biological warfare activities, which has been one of our two initial areas of focus, ISG teams are uncovering significant information -- including research and development of BW-applicable organisms, the involvement of Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) in possible BW activities, and deliberate concealment activities. All of this suggests Iraq after 1996 further compartmentalized its program and

focused on maintaining smaller, covert capabilities that could be activated quickly to surge the production of BW agents.

Debriefings of IIS officials and site visits have begun to unravel a clandestine network of laboratories and facilities within the security service apparatus. This network was never declared to the UN and was previously unknown.

We are still working on determining the extent to which this network was tied to large-scale military efforts or BW terror weapons, but this clandestine capability was suitable for preserving BW expertise, BW capable facilities and continuing R&D -- all key elements for maintaining a capability for resuming BW production.

The IIS also played a prominent role in sponsoring students for overseas graduate studies in the biological sciences, according to Iraqi scientists and IIS sources, providing an important avenue for furthering BW-applicable research.

This was the only area of graduate work that the IIS appeared to sponsor.

Discussions with Iraqi scientists uncovered agent R&D work that paired overt work with nonpathogenic organisms serving as surrogates for prohibited investigation with pathogenic agents.

Examples include: B. Thurengiensis (Bt) with B. anthracis (anthrax), and medicinal plants with ricin.

In a similar vein, two key former BW scientists, confirmed that Iraq under the guise of legitimate activity developed refinements of processes and products relevant to BW agents. The scientists discussed the development of improved, simplified fermentation and spray drying capabilities for the simulant Bt that would have been directly applicable to anthrax, and one scientist confirmed that the production line for Bt could be switched to produce anthrax in one week if the seed stock were available.

A very large body of information has been developed through debriefings, site visits, and exploitation of captured Iraqi documents that confirms that Iraq concealed equipment and materials from UN inspectors when they returned in 2002.

One noteworthy example is a collection of reference strains that ought to have been declared to the UN.

Among them was a vial of live C. botulinum Okra B. from which a biological agent can be produced.

This discovery -- hidden in the home of a BW scientist -- illustrates the point I made earlier about the difficulty of locating small stocks of material that can be used to covertly surge production of deadly weapons.

The scientist who concealed the vials containing this agent has identified a large cache of agents that he was asked, but refused, to conceal. ISG is actively searching for this second cache.

Additional information is beginning to corroborate reporting since 1996 about human testing activities using chemical and biological substances, but progress in this area is slow given the concern of knowledgeable Iraqi personnel about their being prosecuted for crimes against humanity.

We have not yet been able to corroborate the existence of a mobile BW production effort. Investigation into the origin of and intended use for the two trailers found in northern Iraq in April has yielded a number of explanations, including hydrogen, missile propellant, and BW production, but technical limitations would prevent any of these processes from being ideally suited to these trailers. That said, nothing we have discovered rules out their potential use in BW production.

We have made significant progress in identifying and locating individuals who were reportedly involved in a mobile program, and we are confident that we will be able to get an answer to the questions as to whether there was a mobile program and whether the trailers that have been discovered so far were part of such a program.

Let me turn now to chemical weapons (CW). In searching for retained stocks of chemical munitions, ISG has had to contend with the almost unbelievable scale of Iraq's conventional weapons armory, which dwarfs by orders of magnitude the physical size of any conceivable stock of chemical weapons.

For example, there are approximately 130 known Iraqi Ammunition Storage Points (ASP), many of which exceed 50 square miles in size and hold an estimated 600,000 tons of artillery shells, rockets, aviation bombs and other ordinance. Of these 130 ASPs, approximately 120 still remain unexamined.

As Iraqi practice was not to mark much of their chemical ordinance and to store it at the same ASPs that held conventional rounds, the size of the required search effort is enormous.

While searching for retained weapons, ISG teams have developed multiple sources that indicate that Iraq explored the possibility of CW production in recent years, possibly as late as 2003.

When Saddam had asked a senior military official in either 2001 or 2002 how long it would take to produce new chemical agent and weapons, he told ISG that after he consulted with CW experts in OMI he responded it would take six months for mustard.

Another senior Iraqi chemical weapons expert in responding to a request in mid-2002 from Uday Husayn for CW for the Fedayeen Saddam estimated that it would take two months to produce mustard and two years for Sarin...
Click to expand...

They have told ISG that Saddam Husayn remained firmly committed to acquiring nuclear weapons. These officials assert that Saddam would have resumed nuclear weapons development at some future point. Some indicated a resumption after Iraq was free of sanctions.

At least one senior Iraqi official believed that by 2000 Saddam had run out of patience with waiting for sanctions to end and wanted to restart the nuclear program.

The Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission (IAEC) beginning around 1999 expanded its laboratories and research activities and increased its overall funding levels.

This expansion may have been in initial preparation for renewed nuclear weapons research, although documentary evidence of this has not been found, and this is the subject of continuing investigation by ISG.

Starting around 2000, the senior Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission (IAEC) and high-level Ba'ath Party official Dr. Khalid Ibrahim Sa'id began several small and relatively unsophisticated research initiatives that could be applied to nuclear weapons development.

These initiatives did not in-and-of themselves constitute a resumption of the nuclear weapons program, but could have been useful in developing a weapons-relevant science base for the long-term. We do not yet have information indicating whether a higher government authority directed Sa'id to initiate this research and, regretfully, Dr. Said was killed on April 8th during the fall of Baghdad when the car he was riding in attempted to run a Coalition roadblock.
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Link from CNN

dallastigers, Jan 24, 2004

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Sourdoughman TigerFan of LSU and the Tigerman

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Kay was all pro going over there and knew they were there, I saw him talk about that MANY times on TV before he went.

I'll tell you where the weapons are, thier either underground somewhere but I have a feeling thier in Syria and Iran.

Hey Cottonbowl,

What do you say about the terrorist training camps over there?:cry:

Sourdoughman, Jan 24, 2004

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CottonBowl'66 Founding Member

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There were NO Al Qaida training camps in the part of Iraq controlled by Saddam Hussein. There is nothing to indicate Saddam Hussein was allied with Al Qaida. Bush himself said that there is nothing to indicate Saddam Hussein had anything to do with 911.

All Arab countries, and many Moslem countries have ties to the terrorist groups fighting Israel, like Islamic Jihad, and Hamas. Those are the groups that Saddam did have ties to.

If we invaded Iraq because of that, when do we invade Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Libya, and the rest of them?

CottonBowl'66, Jan 24, 2004

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dallastigers Founding Member

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Bush himself said that there is nothing to indicate Saddam Hussein had anything to do with 911.
Click to expand...

I thought Bush was evil and a liar.

dallastigers, Jan 24, 2004

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dallastigers Founding Member

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Originally posted by CottonBowl'66
All Arab countries, and many Moslem countries have ties to the terrorist groups fighting Israel, like Islamic Jihad, and Hamas. Those are the groups that Saddam did have ties to.

If we invaded Iraq because of that, when do we invade Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Libya, and the rest of them?
Click to expand...

Not a bad idea.

You seem like you are ok with terrorists killing jews just not with Americans killing terrorists.

dallastigers, Jan 24, 2004

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martin Banned Forever

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the reason we invaded iraq was because iraq wasnt abiding by the rules of the '91 cease fire. that is why we dont invade syria and libya.

wmd or no wmd, everyone, including the UN, admits that iraq was not abiding by the cease fire rules.

martin, Jan 24, 2004

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Sourdoughman TigerFan of LSU and the Tigerman

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Originally posted by martin
the reason we invaded iraq was because iraq wasnt abiding by the rules of the '91 cease fire. that is why we dont invade syria and libya.

wmd or no wmd, everyone, including the UN, admits that iraq was not abiding by the cease fire rules.
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from what you hear from the media and the Dems you would think
that is a false statement.

They just don't like the idea of invading Iraq for any reason or anywhere else for that matter.

They would just like to lob a few missiles here and thier and warn
people and just the talk routine.

Sourdoughman, Jan 24, 2004

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JSracing Founding Member

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Originally posted by CottonBowl'66
There were NO Al Qaida training camps in the part of Iraq controlled by Saddam Hussein. There is nothing to indicate Saddam Hussein was allied with Al Qaida. Bush himself said that there is nothing to indicate Saddam Hussein had anything to do with 911.

All Arab countries, and many Moslem countries have ties to the terrorist groups fighting Israel, like Islamic Jihad, and Hamas. Those are the groups that Saddam did have ties to.

If we invaded Iraq because of that, when do we invade Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Libya, and the rest of them?
Click to expand...

hopefully we won't have to as this effort in Iraq should send a message to terrorists and dictators around the globe. if not well

hey I guess we might have to kick a few more doors in eh?
LOL that should get you pretty hot.

JSracing, Jan 24, 2004

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