1. How can you say OU's defense is poor based on a game they lost, when their defense gave up no points.

2. Timmy Chang played in a pass friendly system, and didn't play a Big 12 schedule, plus Ohio St. When Chang played against a good foe 2-3 times a year, like Hawaii does, he got his ass handed to him. I didn't see that happening to ole Vince. You will throw the only card in your pathetic arguement now, and say Chang had no talent, and this is true, but ultimately, it is up to the QB to make the right decisions. But VY is "stupid" I forgot.

3. NEVER EVER did I say Cutler should do things similar to what Young did. All I said was that if he was so good, he would have willed his team to victory in at least 2-3 of the close games they lost to sub-par teams. You know, like the epic performance he put up against Mid Tenn St., and what-not?

4. I did miss that Vandy/UF game, all expcept the very end, b/c I was in Tiger Stadium at the time.

5. What in the hell has Vince Young done that you question his intelligence? Other than his 2 Rose Bowl titles, and his having only 2 losses in his entire college career as a starter? When did he make a bad decision to cost his team a game? When did he make a bad play that hurt his team? When did he have a bad game, even? I don't care if the dude is dumb as a rock, and can't add 2+2, I haven't seen him make a "football" mistake in the 2 seasons I've seen him play

Some of the people here are absolute homers, and it's quite pathetic. Every single person on this entire forum was willing to say Tyrus Thomas would hands-down be an incredible NBA player, when he has dozens of question marks about his game, and is relatively unproven in college; whereas, someone who has done EVERYTHING at the college level, gets slaughtered.

Now, I know NBA to NFL is apples and oranges, but I have no doubts at all that if Young had attended LSU, we would all be declaring him the next Peyton Manning. I know this, b/c most of us declare JaMarcus Russell a great pro already

All I am saying is that if Cutler was this great QB and great leader we all say he is, he would have made a big play late to beat MIDDLE TENNESSEE ST, or SOUTH CAROLINA, or KENTUCKY, or OLE MISS, or RUTGERS, or KENTUCKY again,all of teams they have lost to by small margins in the last 2 years.

When the chips were all on the table, and the game was on the line, VY ALWAYS came through.

Where in the hell did I say that OU's defense was poor? You acted like having a good game vs OU's defense meant instant success in the NFL. I'm saying that ain't necessarily the case. You don't see Ell Roberson tearing up the league, now do you?

My point, exactly. You need to look beyond your little collegiate stats and into more important things when assessing a QB's potential in the NFL. But, since you brought up passer rating to refute claims of VY being a running QB, did you know that Matt Jones was in a virtual dead-heat with Mauck in 2003 for tops in the SEC? You going to tell me he wasn't a running QB? To suggest that either he or Vince weren't is foolish, and I think even you know that.

Yes, you did. You said he should have 'willed' his teams to victory the way that VY did. As to say that if he were such a good QB, he should have made his recievers faster and more athletic, or his line bigger and stronger. But then you admitted that VY was surrounded with a much higher grade of talent than JC. I suppose it's a little easier to 'will your team to victory' when your playing with 4 & 5 star recruits, eh?

Ok, then you're simply basing your opinion off of insufficient data. Enough said.

Well, the Wonderlic thing certainly didn't help. Now he's throwing parties with Pacman Jones. That's brilliant. But while at UT, I saw him frequently miss recievers and disregard defensive formations. But he had the ability to get out of it because of his running ability, thus very few people saw it as a 'mistake.' And I suppose that, at the time, it wasn't. But that sh*t don't fly in the NFL.

Homer, eh? Lol. How exactly does me not thinking that VY will be a very good NFL QB make me a homer, again? I have nothing against the Titans (in fact, I kind of like them), I'm not some big UT-hater, I'm not a big fan of any of the teams that the Titans are rivals with, and I'm certainly no Vandy fan. And lord knows I wanted to make Vince president the day after the Rose Bowl.This isn't myopic. I just have several reasons to think that Vince won't be a great NFL QB, based on my own rationale. So, again, explain the homerism, please.

What this has to do with the topic at hand is beyond me. If you want to discuss TT, start another thread. Otherwise, you're wasting your time.

Yeah, I guess those NFL talent scouts just don't know nearly as much as you. Perhaps they should fear for their jobs.

Incorrect. VY and all of his 4&5-star teammates always came through.

At any rate, I'm still amused at how much you hate on Michael Vick, yet here you are firmly attached to Vince Young's nutsack.

see below

sorry, had to do it :hihi:

the fact that you quoted every single thing I have ever posted on this forum proves thoroughly that you have no life.

So I wont argue any more. But an elephant never forgets, and assuming you're still here in a few years, i'll be here to tell you I told you so.

As far as me knowing more than the scouts, you do realize that Cutler was the 3rd QB taken, right?

And that a dozen or so teams could have drafted him, but didn't, right?, while Young was the FIRST QB taken, and only 2 teams didn't take him.

Of the teams that didn't take Cutler that had a chance, Tennessee, the Jets, Oakland, Buffalo, Detroit, Zona ALL could have used a QB, but they all decided Cutler wasn't all that.

Whereas, the FIRST team that needed a QB (Texans= Carr. Saints= Brees) took Young.

I may not be a genius, and you have already proven to me how stupid I am, but who do your precious little scouts seem to favor? The guy who was picked 3rd, and who was taken OVER the kid, who was already coached by Tennessee's offensive coordinator, or the kid who was taken 11th, and was passed up by 4-5 teams who could have used a franchise QB?


Check out Wikipedia, they have some pretty cool stuff that even you can understand:

1. Vince Young is the first and only player in NCAA I-A history to pass for 3,000 yards and rush for 1,000 yards in the same season. No other player has even reached the 2,500/1,000 mark in a season. (The fact that he is the only person in this category proves that he IS NOT the option, run 1st QB, b/c there have been thousands of those in the NCAA, and none have ever accomplished the things he has.

2. # He has a win/loss record as a starter of 30-2, ranking him #1 of all UT quarterbacks by number of wins. His .938 winning percentage as a starting quarterback ranks sixth best in NCAA Division I football history. 30-2. I'm sorry, but you can have all the talent in the world, but in today's college football, to go 30-2 is amazing.

3. Vince's career passing completion percentage is the best in UT history at 61.8%. 62%. That's not too shabby, is it? Especially considering he really didn't have a good freshman season compared to his sophomore and junior ones

4. Young set the UT single-game pass completion percentage record against Oklahoma State in 2004 by completing 18 of 21 passes (85.7%). He broke his own record by completing 25 of 29 passes (86.2%) against Colorado in 2005. 18-21 against Oklahoma St. during Miles's reign. I remember that game, actually. And 25-29 against Colorado... Wasn't that in the championship game? Not too bad!

5. Young's 17 wins and 43 touchdowns accounted for in 2003-2004 are the most ever by a UT quarterback in their first two years

6. In the 2006 NCAA national championship game, he completed 30 of 40 passes for 267 yards and carried the ball 19 times for 200 yards and 3 rushing touchdowns. Those 200 rushing yards set a Bowl game rushing record by a QB. He was named Rose Bowl MVP for the second time in his career. UT beat USC by the score of 41 to 38 and Vince Young ran in the winning touchdown. In this game, UT ended USC's 34-game win streak. Young's 467 total yards set a new Rose Bowl record.

no, i'm glad you did

this guy is a complete, and total clown. He has always judged EVERYTHING I have said here since day 1, and when explaining himself, has said a whole lot of nothing in the process.

Quite the sort of predictable childish tactics we've come to expect from you. Whether or not I have a life is immaterial in relation to the argument. But if you want to make this about me, have at it. You've proven your immaturity on here a long time ago. I'm sure that damage control is beyond the realm of possibility by now.

Clearly, you will, as evidenced by your further comments. I guess you have no life, either?

What's that got to do with anything. Have you any idea how many players that have been taken ahead of others at the same position that have turned out to be flops? And from up here, you seem to be arguing that Cutler won't be a good NFL QB. Here's a newsflash: Draft position doesn't win you any games in the NFL.

Newsflash No. 2: Teams don't draft positions that they don't need. Yes, Tennessee obviously thought he was the best QB. Big deal. As I've pointed out, that doesn't mean a whole lot in relation to an argument. The fact that one was drafted ahead of the other is the whole reason we're arguing in the first place. Pointing it out again does you no good.

He's coming from an offensive system (yes, the shotgun) that does not translate well in the league, he throws like a girl (yes, this is important), and he's been able to mask his inability to read defenses and check off recievers with his jaw-dropping runs. That is why I think he won't be a good NFL QB, and that is also something that stats cannot refute.

That's ignorant. Those teams that didn't draft a QB obviously didn't have it as their top priority because they would have drafted one even if they didn't think that Cutler was the right fit. Otherwise, you'd have to explain why NYJ, Oak., Det., and Buff. all passed on Leinart, as well. You really should pay closer attention to how these things work.

Well, looky here. Clair's spewing out stats again instead of formulating his own argument, or refuting my claims. What a shock. I hate to break it to you, but he won't be able to bring these stats to the NFL with him. Nor will he be facing creme-puff Big 12 defenses week-in and week-out. Like I said before, Timmy Chang is the NCAA all-time passing leader. That right there tells you that college stats don't mean squat, regardless of any excuse that you use to devalidify the mark.

Seriously, if this is the only argument you have in favor of Vince being a great NFL QB, it's easy to see why you're getting so mad. As long as you keep leaning on collegiate stats, I'll continue to remain assured that you've no real leg to stand on.

Well, it has A LOT to do with everything, being that your last msg before this one, you made it seem like you had every NFL scout agreeing with you, and if this was the case, don't you think a team would have taken him higher than they did?

Yet, I am childish. Vince Young would make you into a little girl if you'd tell him that to his face, which I might add, you wouldn't.

Do you really, honestly think teams would spend millions, upon millions on a "franchise" QB, and more importantly, a 1st round pick, on someone who "wasn't the right fit?" You're off your nut.

When in any message did I say that I thought Leinart was going to be a good pro, or that I thought Leinart was better, or worse than Cutler. You're only defense, and your only way to be successful is by putting words into my mouth.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: what a joke... Cutler couldn't do diddly-poo against Middle Tennessee St., yet you're going to bash the "creme-puff" Big 12. Is it VY's fault that his conference was down? I'm sorry, but Ohio State, Oklahoma, USC, Michigan, Texas A&M, etc... are all top-flight programs. He isn't TOTALLY untested as you'd like to think. As far as stats go. I'm sorry, but those are the only things that don't lie. If I say 2+2=4, is that b/c I "can't formulate an opinion of my own." Stats are things that are, and have been done. Stats are things that have already been decided on the field. I think that'd carry more weight, than some clown's opinion on a message board.

we need other imput:

Who is right here?...

I know No Limit agrees with me, b/c he has sports-smarts, but am I as off my nut as this clown is making me seem?

I didn't make it seem like that, you percieved it that way out of your own fault. You don't think that Cutler will be a good NFL QB b/c of what he didn't do at Vandy. However, the NFL scouts and teams disagree with you. Where's the confusion? All you can do is point to stats and W-L totals, whereas these guys (as well as most rational fnas) look well beyond that because it doesn't mean squat.

You confirmed the first statement with the second. Grow up.

Huh? Never did I say that a team would waste money on the wrong player. Pay attention. I said that a team would have drafted a different QB if it was their top priority and didn't think that Jay was the right fit. That's not so hard to understand, is it?

Never said that you did, dude. But if you're using draft order as some be-all, end-all determination of NFL prosperity (which you essentially are), you'd have to argue that Leinart was a better QB than Cutler, right? Come on, I shouldn't have to explain this.

I don't think you understand what that euphemism means.

Programs? Sure. Defenses? Certainly not the last 3.

In fact, stats are the single most misleading thing when dealing with the difference b/w the NFL and college. Bro, I never denied that VY had a brilliant collegiate career. You do realize that, don't you? I don't know why you're trying to convince me otherwise. But there is a HELL of a lot more that goes into being a successful player at the next level than skewed statistics. But I guess they do make a nice crutch for people who have no argument otherwise. It's pretty telling that you refuse to deny any of my claims.

'Been done'...not 'will be done.' Get it?

You're acting like I'm the only one in the world with this opinion. Secondly, why are you here if stats make discussion null and void? You're not going to last very long on these boards if you don't learn how to handle different opinions better.

Who cares? Learn how to defend your argument on your own, dude. No one knows who is right because we're trying to predict the future. I've said why I thought that VY won't tear up the league, and all you do is try to take personal jabs and throw around stats, conveniently dancing around the concrete part of the argument. Why do you need others to agree with you? If you're confident in your stance, it really doesn't matter.

And speaking of putting words in othes mouths, how does 'I think VY is a big question mark' (NLMD) translate as a ringing endorsement of your opinion?

I'm not going to last here long if I don't learn how to handle different opinions better.

OHHHHHHHHH! Is that a threat? :thumb:

Ease up, man. I call you "clown," but trust me, I don't mean it in a bad way. I really don't. It's the same as if a random person would say "homie," "cat," "dawg," anything like that. That's just a bad habit I got from a professor, actually.

And basically, this is how I'm viewing it all, and if it's different than this, then just fill me in:

1. You think I'm nothing more than a worthless, punk kid, who thinks he knows it all.
2. You think nothing Vince Young did in college means anything today in training camp.
3. You think NFL scouts have definite concerns about Vince as a pro, and favor Jay Cutler.
4. You think Cutler will be better, b/c he can make all the "throws."

And basically, this is how I feel.

1. I don't need to impress anyone, as my resume speaks for itself. You can make your cute little grammatical corrections to my posts, and what-not, but the fact of the matter is, that at the end of the day I am not the stupid kid you think I am. I am one of 2 freshmen (now Sophomore) at LSU, chosen out of a pool of 150 contestents to be a sportswriter in the fall. I AM NOT, AM NOOOOOOOOOOT in any way, saying that this makes me better than anyone, or anything, but it has validated, that I, at least, am making strides toward my life-long dream of being a sportswriter. And it always reassures me that my opinions are not completely ridiculous, b/c if they would be, I would have never gotten chosen to represent the school's Sports Department.

2. You're right. As of right now, Vince Young is no better than Ryan Leaf, but as an optimist, I will say that he is no worse than Peyton Manning, either. I do agree that out of Leinart, Young, and Cutler, Young probably has the largest chance of being a bust, due to injury, or whatever, but at the SAME TIME, I think he has a FAAAAAAAAR greater chance of being great, over Leinart and Cutler, too.

College stats, and what-not mean nothing toward the NFL, but toward predicting results in the NFL, I'd feel more comfortable with the proven winner, and the proven athlete with more upside, over the guy who has yet to prove himself in the spot-light, and HAS lost every big game, he has been in, whether it is his fault, or not.

3. Jay Cutler got a lower combine score, and as Mel Kiper put it, he is "One of the most overrated prospects he has ever seen." He IS in a good system, and I think he can eventually be about as good as Jake Plummer is, but I don't see him being anything special.

4. I don't know how people can doubt Vince's arm. You can doubt his brain, you can doubt his ability to run too much, but how can people doubt his arm, when all he did was torch college defenses his whole career?

But man, it seems like you think I have hard feelings or something. Trust me, I really don't. I just wanted to see how much of a minority I am in, b/c it's probably a large one, for the reasons NLMD listed in a msg earlier in this thread.