All good points here @Winston1. I was very busy for a while with my new store but since I've been trolling and watching the commentary as it pertains to President Trump. I've been hesitant to comment because I know there are certain individuals who will take any comment of mine as an "I told you so." Further, I have genuinely wanted to give the new President a chance to implement his policies and see if they work. More than anything else I am an American and I want America to succeed regardless of my political leanings.
All of this said, it has become increasingly difficult to allow the new President the benefit of the doubt given all of the information that has come to light regarding Russia and it's ties to the Trump campaign. Let me begin by saying that I believe it would be an awful day in American history if we learn that there was indeed collusion between the Trump campaign and Russian intelligence/Wikileaks.
We first learned of the alleged ties between the Trump campaign and Russian Intel during the campaign. There were trickles of information regarding it but it never seemed to gain traction among the mainstream media with nothing concrete until the puzzling decision to remove harsh language regarding the Ukranian resistance. There was little other reporting on it so after a period of time I had to assume that it was just a bunk political story. For this reason we should all be disappointed that the media failed to dig deeper then. I guess they might not have had the information necessary to go public with the story until later but we'll probably never know. The issue raised it's head again after the election when the story broke about Flynn's conversations with the Russian ambassador before the election which eventually led to his resignation. Since then we've seen new information coming out almost daily. Perhaps more troubling has been the antsy response of the administration as much of their behavior smacks of guilt. Trump was a master of redirecting the media during the campaign but his efforts to do so in recent weeks has been lackluster. The revelation that the FBI was investigating and had been doing so since July of last year was the straw that broke the camels back for me. Further, many of the administrations own arguments for their innocence appear to be digging them deeper, such as Trump's claim that Obama wire-tapped him. Trump essentially admitted that the FBI has something and was trying to get ahead of the news cycle by trying to steer the conversation from the legal to the political. There are many other factors that have played out over the past few months so there is no need for me to rehearse all of them.
We know that many times the cover up is worse than the crime and I wonder if that is the case here or are we essentially living in a Tom Clancy novel where the President of the United States is in cahoots with a foreign government, and an enemy no less. I suppose time will tell. That being said, this has the potential to be a nightmare that I have feared for a long time. With our media so partisan and the nation divided I have feared that if a real scandal ever happened, something akin to Watergate....would the respective media's simply choose corners, creating a crisis between rival factions of political leanings? Will FOX news carry water for Trump even if the FBI investigation finds wrongdoing? I would hope not, no more than if CNN or MSNBC were doing the same for a Democratic candidate or official.
With the economy showing it's first signs of real life over the past 6 months or so, as a business owner I fear that all of this controversy will hurt the first signs of a real recovery that we've seen in the past 10 years. Either way, we need to get to the bottom of this as I truly believe this isn't political but a struggle for the soul of the nation. We aren't talking about garden variety debate on the issues among folks who have different ideas about to best way to achieve X for any given situation. This is far beyond that imo and until we can get this straightened out it makes it very hard to have serious debate about healthcare, immigration, tax reform and every other issue that matter to the American people.

Obviously, I hate Donald Trump as any sane person does. However, I just can't see any way his campaign colluded with Russia. I think the Russians tried to influence the election, everyone knew about it, and Trump consciously didn't take a hard line on Russia as they were trying to help him. Perhaps that's some sort of implicit collusion but it's not collusion and certainly isn't criminal. The thought that he had people in his campaign actually coordinate with Russia on leaking bad news about Clinton isn't his style. He pushes the envelope and breaks the rules when the people he screws over are weak and can do nothing about it but to essentially commit treason is not something they're going to find that he did in my opinion. If I'm wrong, he would obviously be impeached immediately and thrown out of office or it would quite literally be the beginning of the end of our democracy.

From what I am hearing and reading the collusion came in the way of Trump aides coordinating Clinton e-mail drops with Russian intel and Wikileaks. Now, this is just what I have heard and read but that hasn't come directly from the FBI so we'll see. Another thing is that I think it entirely possible that Trump didn't know and that his aides kept him out of the loop to protect him from later incrimination. Maybe I'm being too hopeful about Trump for thinking so but there's more than just smoke here imo.

Yeah, I've read the same but even in those reports, they basically say that they "may have" done it or that there isn't any certainty. As far as I'm concerned, if it's only people on his staff without his knowledge, then maybe he shouldn't go to jail, but he should be done. I just can't believe they'd be that stupid. They play dumb a lot but they are master manipulators, not actual idiots.

True but it seems the information gets more detailed as time goes by. In the end if it turns about to be much ado about nothing then I think we should all breathe a sigh of relief. That said, as long as they are citing anonymous sources I wouldn't expect to see too much detail on their information.

I don't think jail time should be on the table regardless. Either way, if it was him directly or his staff, he should face impeachment and is staffers should resign in shame. The caveat here would be if there was direct collusion by any of his staffers. That could legally be considered treason and that would land them in jail. I say this with the understanding that we are a long way from that at this point.

It is hard to think that they wouldn't know this would come back to bite them in the ass. As it unfolds, if the information is true, it appears extremely careless.

Good to have you back NC. You're takes are challenging and whether I agree or disagree you are a valuable addition to a discussion.
As to Trump as president I had doubts about his capabilities to run the executive branch and be an effective leader but didn't see him as chaotic as he has been. I think his lack of planning, effort at the business of establishing and guiding an administration have been deplorable. He's shown none of the qualities a "businessman" or a leader should have. It's been amateur hour at the White House. That's disturbing.
His whole approach to Russia and Putin makes my skin crawl. I had no problem with him appearing to tweek BO & HRC last summer by calling Putin strong and the others weak. However from the time he clinched the nomination his continued defense of Putin has been disturbing. IMO this shows both his lack of understanding not only of who and what Putin is but a disturbing admiration of a dictatorial method of ruling.
As to the collusion if any during the campaign between the Russians and Trump's people that is frightening. I have no problem taking advantage of the DNC leaks if they were a blind gift from heaven. I discounted D claims of collusion as sour grapes and deflection. However if there was any (and there is a lot of smoke) that is close to treason. Collaboration with an enemy is unforgivable. I want to see this fully out in the open before jumping to that conclusion though.
All in all though Trump has made some really good appointments (Mattis, Pompeo etc) he shows no sign of listening to them. It seems that Bannon and Miller have his ear. He also has made a few good proposals for our country. Unfortunately all has been greatly outweighed and overshadowed by the messes he has been creating and his apparent lack of interest in the hard work and details of running the country.

So trump was right on the survalence on his Tower?

I take it we can concede that point now?

If so, and if we "know" his team talked to Russia, surely we have evidence to share. Correct??


Asking for a friend.

No. Trump tower was never specifically under surveillance. More, Trump nor any of his campaign aides were specifically under surveillance either. Comey and just about every other Intel Chief have supported this. Nunes even admitted as much yesterday when he decided to take his little ride over to the WH and get in front of the cameras.

Would the FBI be conducting an investigation into this if there were not? I doubt it. Any agency conducting an investigation would be foolish and amateurish to share evidence before they've concluded their investigation.

This is too funny.....

OK, so take the bold....

Though he actually said this:

"Clearly there is a lot of information in the reports that I've seen, which were dozens, that would lead me to believe that the last administration and numerous agencies had a pretty good idea of what President-elect Trump was up to and what his transition team was up to and who they were meeting with,"

Yet, the media has already had their trial. As have many here.

What smoke?

The enemy?

Are we at war with Russia?

What am I missing here?

We openly state we spy on all these foreign countries and decide that them doing it back is an act of war or some shit?

To the extent some of you want WWIII is astounding.