Intelligent Design | Page 7 | TigerFan.com

martin · Sep 16, 2005

marcmc99 said:

martin said:

You've gone way off the deep end with this one. A further illustration of my earlier comments.
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excuse me if i misuderstood you. maybe it is just me but you appear to be sort of cryptic and elusive about this stuff.

but again, if you advocate discussion of religious theories in science class (and i am not saying you do, because no matter what i think you are saying i appear to be wrong) then why not discuss religious theories that you disagree with? why not discuss exactly how much prayer will help the sick or how many americans should be killed to please allah?

that may sound lie an absurd slippery slope, but it isnt. faith based theories all have the same value, which is zero to those without faith and a whole lot of value to those with faith. and if we go down the road of granting time for discussing faith based theories in science class, we have ruined the whole idea of rational science for kids.
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marcmc99 · Sep 16, 2005

CParso said:

marcmc99 said:

I'd have to disagree. Perhaps for the sake of argument, but you started off by taking an argumentative stance for having Intelligent Design in schools, when you should have just said that you believe it should be mentioned & not taught to begin with. Instead, you continued to argue before eventually stating that it should merely be mentioned, and by this point it had been argued so much that it appeared to martin & Contained that you were just backing away from your argument instead of just stating your actual opinion on the matter.
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Perhaps you are right. Looking back, I wasn't very specific. I do from time to time throw out something and let martin run with it and tell me what I'm really supposed to mean. He still hasn't gotten it figured it out because he can't get over the fact my opinion doesn't match what he thinks it should, based on my religious beliefs.

But...for martin's benefit:

No, med schools should not teach prayer as a healing mechanism. But, if a surgeon who works for the VA happens to be religious, he shouldn't be forbidden to pray before he goes into surgery, simply because he works for the gov't.

And, in the science classroom, a teacher should be allowed to say "millions of Americans reject the various scientific theories of the origins of the universe, based solely on religious beliefs. This is based on religious doctrines which teach the universe was created by some form of higher being, not scientific evidence, therefore it will not be discussed in this classroom." That way they'll have some idea as to why so many people get pissed off over the subject, especially if they have no religious background. Nobody would really be satisfied, but hey, they'll get over it.

And I believe this whole topic is a waste of time and tax payer money. The country would be best served if the two sides were forced to compromise. If one side "wins" this will never end. Tell both sides to shut up, and move on with the business of running the country. We've got enough problems to keep all the politicians busy for some time.
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martin · Sep 16, 2005

marcmc99 said:

CParso said:

Perhaps you are right. Looking back, I wasn't very specific. I do from time to time throw out something and let martin run with it and tell me what I'm really supposed to mean. He still hasn't gotten it figured it out because he can't get over the fact my opinion doesn't match what he thinks it should, based on my religious beliefs.
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i dont mind telling you how you should think, but i would prefer that you didnt lead me to tell you something you already know, as i am telling you how to think as a favor to you. but if needlessly leading me to explain things is your thing, i guess go for it. maybe it will benefit random passersby.

But...for martin's benefit:

No, med schools should not teach prayer as a healing mechanism. But, if a surgeon who works for the VA happens to be religious, he shouldn't be forbidden to pray before he goes into surgery, simply because he works for the gov't.

And, in the science classroom, a teacher should be allowed to say "millions of Americans reject the various scientific theories of the origins of the universe, based solely on religious beliefs. This is based on religious doctrines which teach the universe was created by some form of higher being, not scientific evidence, therefore it will not be discussed in this classroom." That way they'll have some idea as to why so many people get pissed off over the subject, especially if they have no religious background. Nobody would really be satisfied, but hey, they'll get over it.

And I believe this whole topic is a waste of time and tax payer money. The country would be best served if the two sides were forced to compromise. If one side "wins" this will never end. Tell both sides to shut up, and move on with the business of running the country. We've got enough problems to keep all the politicians busy for some time.
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i wish you had told us earlier that you have the least controversial opinion possible and that you actually agree with me and oppose teaching intelligent design in science classes.
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MFn G I M P · Sep 16, 2005

Contained Chaos said:

I would like to emphatically second that. I wish he posted more. He is one of the most reasonable and unbiased guys around here, despite the fact that we often have very different views.
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Well thank you, it's always nice to recieve a compliment. I'm gonna start posting more i've just been busy lately and since I didn't have internet over the summer I got out of the habit of posting. Now that I have the wireless router and internet setup in my apartment I'm gonna try to start posting more.

marcmc99 · Sep 16, 2005

martin said:

i wish you had told us earlier that you have the least controversial opinion possible and that you actually agree with me and oppose teaching intelligent design in science classes.
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I said I opposed teaching it all along, I said it should be brought up in discussion. No one bothered to ask me what I meant, you and Red ran with it. I don't mind playing along when I have time to kill. One question though, do you oppose the very mention of creationism in the classroom (as with the statement in my previous post), or is that a satisfactory resolution in your opinion?

martin · Sep 16, 2005

marcmc99 said:

I said I opposed teaching it all along, I said it should be brought up in discussion. No one bothered to ask me what I meant, you and Red ran with it. I don't mind playing along when I have time to kill. One question though, do you oppose the very mention of creationism in the classroom (as with the statement in my previous post), or is that a satisfactory resolution in your opinion?
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we disagree in the sense that i think bringing it up in science class is a bad idea, just like i think suggesting 4+1 might equal 9 in math class is pointless. even if half the people thing 4+1=9. it doesnt matter how many people believe something if it isnt science.

it never warrants mention in science class, because it isnt science. if students ask about it, they should be directed to study creationism in their religion classes.

i think this is a silly line you are drawing between teaching and discussing. there is no point in science classes discussing religion. i dont think it is a false parallel to compare this issue to discussing how many virgins a terrorist recieves for a suicide bombing. that is a question that a muslim scholar should discuss.

so to more directly answer your question, yes i think the very mention of creationism by a science teacher is a pointless waste of time. mentioning creationism as a legitimate part of a scientific debate is more than a waste of time, it is a lie that kids shouldnt hear.

red55 · Sep 16, 2005

It is clear that you are just pulling my chain at this point, but I can't let you get away with a preposterous statement like this one.

marcmc99 said:

I believe it needs to be acknowledged if we are going to teach kids how to function in society in general. You agree, I think, but we disagree as to which forum this should occur in. I believe education also includes helping people learn to interact in a society where not everyone agrees with them.
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What you describe is, in fact, social studies. You agree with me and you don't even realize it.

marcmc99 said:

Science class is the forum where the subject arises
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Science class is where the subject of science arises. The interjection of creation myths is clearly out of place as they have no basis in scientific fact.

marcmc99 said:

Education shouldn't take place in a box.
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Whatever in the world do you mean by this? Education has always taken place in environments where multiple subjects are studied. Usually in different classes where one can stick to the subject at hand without distraction. English isn't taught in math classes. Geography isn't taught in biology classes. And theology isn't taught in geology class. Not by scientists at least.

As long as a student takes a well-rounded curriculum, he will be exposed to science, social studies, and the arts and will be completely informed about controversial topics yet properly schooled in the various subjects. Confusing students by mixing religious psuedo-science with true science will produce a generation of pseudo-scientists who will benefit no one.

NoLimitMD · Sep 16, 2005

MFn G I M P said:

Now that I have the wireless router and internet setup in my apartment I'm gonna try to start posting more.
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Hell yea, putting your neighbor's bandwidth to good use! :hihi::thumb:

kcal · Sep 16, 2005

red55 said:

... Science class is where the subject of science arises.
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Thanks Red, I for one am smarter than I was when I started reading this thread. :hihi:

MFn G I M P · Sep 16, 2005

NoLimitMD said:

Hell yea, putting your neighbor's bandwidth to good use! :hihi::thumb:
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I was for a while before I bought a router since my room in the apartment doesn't have a cable outlet in it. So I couldn't set up the cable modem in my room. My roommates room has the cable outlet so I didn't have internet on my computer until we went and bought a router.